I have just completed a trap out - almost. We opened the ceiling inside the apartment cut only comb with honey and vacuumed a good many bees as we worked. We determined that the comb forming the central nest were ensconced somewhere between a flat roof and the interior of a brick chimney 5 stories up. It was impossible to determine exactly where they were without further demolition. The cost-benefit ratio of reaching the central nesting areas made it impossible to remove the entire colony. We decided to leave the large hole in apartment ceiling open until the remaining bees flew to the closed window and died inside the apartment (luckily unoccupied and unfurnished). The exterior entrance of the bees has been sealed off.
Closing up the ceiling was not an option at this point because that would cause more bees to get into the apartments in the building - which had been an ongoing problem.
There is a fire escape outside the window.
Time is very much a concern for this co-op building as the unit must be sold - without the bees of course.
What are your thoughts about a bait box on the fire escape to speed things along? Any other ideas?
Quick question. Have you invested in an infrared camera system? You can now get them which attack to your phone. Usually you can find exactly where the bees are located with this tool.
If you have one and still can?t pin the exact location down.... JP has a video showing how to do a successful chimney trap out. Check it out if you have not already done so. Your bees may not be in the chimney but, the method may still help you.
A bait box will only feed the bees so they can recover. You must get a cone on the exterior exit and close off all other entrances. Then put eggs in the catch box and let them gather in it fo 4 to 8 weeks.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=20301.0
2Socs,
This would bee a disaster if that was located here in florida. As soon as the hive became weak the small hive beetles would start laying eggs all over the hive. In three days they start hatching causing the honey to ferment and drip. In 3 weeks they start crawling out of the hive, looking like maggots, to find dirt. This is a real disaster for the home owner. I hope you do not have SHB.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 27, 2021, 07:28:39 PM
2Socs,
This would bee a disaster if that was located here in florida. As soon as the hive became weak the small hive beetles would start laying eggs all over the hive. In three days they start hatching causing the honey to ferment and drip. In 3 weeks they start crawling out of the hive, looking like maggots, to find dirt. This is a real disaster for the home owner. I hope you do not have SHB.
Jim Altmiller
Lucky us. SHB is not an issue here. Only see them once in awhile.
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 27, 2021, 04:31:18 PM
Quick question. Have you invested in an infrared camera system? You can now get them which attack to your phone. Usually you can find exactly where the bees are located with this tool.
If you have one and still can?t pin the exact location down.... JP has a video showing how to do a successful chimney trap out. Check it out if you have not already done so. Your bees may not be in the chimney but, the method may still help you.
Building was built in 1928. Lathe, wire frame and plaster. Have a FLIR. No discernible heat signature through that stuff.
Quote from: iddee on May 27, 2021, 04:34:19 PM
A bait box will only feed the bees so they can recover. You must get a cone on the exterior exit and close off all other entrances. Then put eggs in the catch box and let them gather in it fo 4 to 8 weeks.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=20301.0
We thought of a trap out. It meant building a platform attached to the building 4 stories up . All this would add on costs the cooperative was not willing to spend AND be dangerous for the beek.
You had to be there. I?ve done almost 100 cut outs and only ran into a failure one other time. On a historical building the exterior of which could not be touched. We left the colony intact on that one. But this one was truly disappointing. It would be crazy to continue demolition to get at this colony in a brick exterior and ?rubber? roof.
Quote from: 2Sox on May 28, 2021, 12:43:06 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 27, 2021, 04:31:18 PM
Quick question. Have you invested in an infrared camera system? You can now get them which attack to your phone. Usually you can find exactly where the bees are located with this tool.
If you have one and still can?t pin the exact location down.... JP has a video showing how to do a successful chimney trap out. Check it out if you have not already done so. Your bees may not be in the chimney but, the method may still help you.
Building was built in 1928. Lathe, wire frame and plaster. Have a FLIR. No discernible heat signature through that stuff.
Wow that makes it tough alright.
Is there any way to spray honey robber into their outside entrance to drive them inside to the cut out ceiling area?
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 28, 2021, 01:12:04 AM
Quote from: 2Sox on May 28, 2021, 12:43:06 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 27, 2021, 04:31:18 PM
Quick question. Have you invested in an infrared camera system? You can now get them which attack to your phone. Usually you can find exactly where the bees are located with this tool.
If you have one and still can?t pin the exact location down.... JP has a video showing how to do a successful chimney trap out. Check it out if you have not already done so. Your bees may not be in the chimney but, the method may still help you.
Building was built in 1928. Lathe, wire frame and plaster. Have a FLIR. No discernible heat signature through that stuff.
Wow that makes it tough alright.
Also, once the ceiling was open the only heat signature gotten would be from the heat hitting the roof.
Rast is that the one that has the reputation of stinking so bad? I have only used beequick personally. I watched a video of folks using a product that was described with a very foul smell. They sprayed a little into a hole in a hollow tree and the bees rolled out! I never seen that type reaction with beequick. I do not know if nurse bees stayed with the brood, or if they caught the queen. But, the rate the bees were boiling out amazed me.
Have you contacted an exterminator?
Quote from: Acebird on May 28, 2021, 09:09:38 AM
Have you contacted an exterminator?
They won?t touch honeybees here. I subcontract for several who call me for everything honeybee related
I'm pretty sure Bee Go was the really stinking one and they disguised the smell somewhat with Robber. Both stink.
BeeQuick works real well and smells good.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 28, 2021, 09:43:53 PM
BeeQuick works real well and smells good.
Jim Altmiller
Beequick does work well. It is all I use, I have not yet been confronted with a cutout with the roadblocks 2Sox has reached so I recommend something that might work in complement with an extreme situation as his. I don't know if I can find that video but if I can I will post it.
Check this out!
https://youtu.be/DwP6fZ59ABI
The cluster on the limb would have been the perfect set-up for the retrieval of the entire bunch with a bee vac and pool pole system. Less a few stragglers; very few.
Quote from: 2Sox on May 28, 2021, 09:25:19 AM
Quote from: Acebird on May 28, 2021, 09:09:38 AM
Have you contacted an exterminator?
They won?t touch honeybees here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=best+exterminator+in+nyc&cs=0&gsas=1&sabplaceid=ChIJOwg_06VPwokRYv534QaPC8g&sabpi=ChIIraDc-AEQnu_etwkY_8evoCUSLXhjYXQ6c2VydmljZV9hcmVhX2J1c2luZXNzX3Blc3RfY29udHJvbDplbi1VUxqEAS9hY2xrP3NhPUwmYWk9RENoY1NFd2lVc3Itcjd1N3dBaFhIbllZS0hYcVNEVGNZQUJBUEdnSjJkUSZsYWJlbD1nbHNfbWVzc2FnZV9jbGlja19mcmVlJnNpZz1BT0Q2NF8wR2NEb3JxV0lTN2tNVUJpUjMwam9UVTZnMXFRJmFkdXJsPSJ_L2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFKR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPXByb2ZpbGVfdmlld19mcmVlJnNpZz1BT0Q2NF8xQTRsNGFSb0xwbHVQX1JOOVh4YW5zS29kTDR3JmFkdXJsPSp-L2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFMR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPWNhbGxfYnV0dG9uX2ZyZWUmc2lnPUFPRDY0XzBUbHctcENqZkhrT2R0eGYwNjB6SndrYVRhM2cmYWR1cmw9MoEBL2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFGR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPWdsc19jYWxsX2NsaWNrX2ZyZWUmc2lnPUFPRDY0XzBTM1RQYU9URmEtdEUxSmJBWEltbnExSmVaSncmYWR1cmw9OoEBL2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFSR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPWdsc19ib29rX2NsaWNrX2ZyZWUmc2lnPUFPRDY0XzNqMkNqaDJEbnpLMWF5MV8xeFhSZXZzRXBJWXcmYWR1cmw9QhMIlLK_q-7u8AIVx52GCh16kg03SARQAw#sabs=521605165;;;;;;;;
They list bees.
Quote from: Acebird on May 29, 2021, 09:14:45 AM
Quote from: 2Sox on May 28, 2021, 09:25:19 AM
Quote from: Acebird on May 28, 2021, 09:09:38 AM
Have you contacted an exterminator?
They won?t touch honeybees here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=best+exterminator+in+nyc&cs=0&gsas=1&sabplaceid=ChIJOwg_06VPwokRYv534QaPC8g&sabpi=ChIIraDc-AEQnu_etwkY_8evoCUSLXhjYXQ6c2VydmljZV9hcmVhX2J1c2luZXNzX3Blc3RfY29udHJvbDplbi1VUxqEAS9hY2xrP3NhPUwmYWk9RENoY1NFd2lVc3Itcjd1N3dBaFhIbllZS0hYcVNEVGNZQUJBUEdnSjJkUSZsYWJlbD1nbHNfbWVzc2FnZV9jbGlja19mcmVlJnNpZz1BT0Q2NF8wR2NEb3JxV0lTN2tNVUJpUjMwam9UVTZnMXFRJmFkdXJsPSJ_L2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFKR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPXByb2ZpbGVfdmlld19mcmVlJnNpZz1BT0Q2NF8xQTRsNGFSb0xwbHVQX1JOOVh4YW5zS29kTDR3JmFkdXJsPSp-L2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFMR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPWNhbGxfYnV0dG9uX2ZyZWUmc2lnPUFPRDY0XzBUbHctcENqZkhrT2R0eGYwNjB6SndrYVRhM2cmYWR1cmw9MoEBL2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFGR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPWdsc19jYWxsX2NsaWNrX2ZyZWUmc2lnPUFPRDY0XzBTM1RQYU9URmEtdEUxSmJBWEltbnExSmVaSncmYWR1cmw9OoEBL2FjbGs_c2E9TCZhaT1EQ2hjU0V3aVVzci1yN3U3d0FoWEhuWVlLSFhxU0RUY1lBQkFSR2dKMmRRJmxhYmVsPWdsc19ib29rX2NsaWNrX2ZyZWUmc2lnPUFPRDY0XzNqMkNqaDJEbnpLMWF5MV8xeFhSZXZzRXBJWXcmYWR1cmw9QhMIlLK_q-7u8AIVx52GCh16kg03SARQAw#sabs=521605165;;;;;;;;
They list bees.
Yes. ?Bees? are always listed on the sites of exterminators. It?s a generic term. We all know that most people are unable to differentiate honeybees from yellow jackets. That?s why the term ?bees?. Exterminators will not touch honeybees in NY, NJ, CT. I don?t know about others states. That?s why they call me with honeybee calls.
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 28, 2021, 10:10:37 PM
Check this out!
https://youtu.be/DwP6fZ59ABI
This is absolutely great, Ben. Thanks. I just sent this to the client to see if they would want to proceed with it.
I always use Bee Quick on my cutouts to chase out the remaining bees before stuffing in the insulation and sealing the entrance. (Learned that from JP.) But I never used Honey Robber because I understand it smells really BAD. Spraying that stuff inside a home, I figure wouldn?t go over too well. The smell of marzipan is better than vomit.
Keep in mind BeeQuick and Robber don?t work on well established hives. The nurse bees won?t abandon the brood.
If I was doing that vacuuming I would have removed to narrow tip when they came pouring out.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 29, 2021, 12:24:38 PM
Keep in mind BeeQuick and Robber don?t work on well established hives. The nurse bees won?t abandon the brood.
If I was doing that vacuuming I would have removed to narrow tip when they came pouring out.
Jim Altmiller
I would have Removed the narrow attachment also. I use the rounded attachment. I think these guys were just getting the feel of using a bee vac. Always a learning experience at first. (Video is 9 years old)
I ask anout the success of the queen and nurse bee evacuation but they did not answer. From the (look) of the way the bees were boiling out could be? I love bee quick but I have never quite got that reaction. I will continue using beequick and recommending it. Smells good and moves the bees well inside a cutout . I was throwing this out there for 2sox in hope it may help him in his extreme situation.
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 29, 2021, 12:59:09 PM
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 29, 2021, 12:24:38 PM
Keep in mind BeeQuick and Robber don?t work on well established hives. The nurse bees won?t abandon the brood.
If I was doing that vacuuming I would have removed to narrow tip when they came pouring out.
Jim Altmiller
I would have Removed the narrow attachment also. I use the rounded attachment. I think these guys were just getting the feel of using a bee vac. Always a learning experience at first. (Video is 9 years old)
I ask anout the success of the queen and nurse bee evacuation but they did not answer. From the (look) of the way the bees were boiling out could be? I love bee quick but I have never quite got that reaction. I will continue using beequick and recommending it. Smells good and moves the bees well inside a cutout . I was throwing this out there for 2sox in hope it may help him in his extreme situation.
I only use a narrow attachment to get into tight areas. But it might not be a bad idea to use it more often. The best way to kill bees - along with excessive suction force - is to vacuum too many at once, and using a narrow attachment controls that automatically.
By the way, Ben, I sent that video to my client. At this point I think the colony is just about done but I wanted them to see it anyway. I will be adding Honey Robber to my next equipment order. I always turn down situations where a trap out would be needed and maybe this would come in handy instead.
What do you think, Jim?
Thanks 2Sox
What I know about the stuff is what I watched and read on the video. If you use it let us know how it works out.
I agree with your thoughts on the bee vac. Too much suction pressure on the bee vac is harmful. I set mine where it is just strong enough to get them in. I test the pressure by adjusting suction pressure on the sensitive cheek area of my face. It is strong enough when I feel a slight (bump) when it makes contact. A heavy pull or bump is too much. Using the round attachment end seems to work well with this combo. I don?t know the size of the opening but I will measure when I return home it is small enough that it fits inside the pool hose. I simply tape the two together. Maybe this information will help someone.
Exterminators are a good contact source for potential removals. I learned the basics of how to do removals from watching duel members of youtube and beemaster; members JP and Schawee. JP is a licensed exterminator if I remember correctly.
A couple of unwritten requirements are "(Bee sure to have an eagle eye for queen catching), and (don't pass up a good milkshake,{"shake"}!)" 🙂
Schawee
.
Quote from: 2Sox on May 29, 2021, 03:20:03 PM
I only use a narrow attachment to get into tight areas. But it might not be a bad idea to use it more often. The best way to kill bees - along with excessive suction force - is to vacuum too many at once, and using a narrow attachment controls that automatically.
Suction is an undefined term. It is not suction that kills the bees it is air velocity that throws the bees against a hard object. Narrowing down the hose is a good idea because it increases the air velocity at the tip to break the bee free from what they are holding on to. As the tip widens into the hose the velocity slows down so the tumbling bees do not hit themselves and the inside of the vacuum can so hard. Most shop vacs have an abrupt right hand turn at the end of the hose in the can. It is helpful if you can modify the elbow to be more gentle. Best would be if the hose enters the can tangentially like in a cyclone dust collector.
Ace,
If the suction is too high the low air pressure expands the bees shell and damages the bees. If you don?t have a vacuum release valve on your bee vac you will have a lot of dead bees and most of them will bee wet from their stomachs emptying out when you turn off the vacuum.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 31, 2021, 10:37:39 AM
Ace,
If the suction is too high the low air pressure expands the bees shell and damages the bees. If you don?t have a vacuum release valve on your bee vac you will have a lot of dead bees and most of them will bee wet from their stomachs emptying out when you turn off the vacuum.
Jim Altmiller
Good post Jim
I am stating the following with fact. I do not lose bees with my vac set up as described in my earlier post. I have used my vac for cutouts and swarm retrievals (many times); adding not once have I damaged a queen to my knowledge. My vac is self made. I used the principles of the Colorado bee vac. Peg board is placed in the entire top of this vac where suction is drawn through these peg board holes evenly, inviting an even, steady, soft suction as soon as the bees enter the box. I built this vac before I obtained my first bee. This vac, along with JPs And Schawees videos were very important tools and information that vaulted me in beekeeping (actually having bees)! 🐝 😊
.
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 31, 2021, 10:37:39 AM
Ace,
If the suction is too high the low air pressure expands the bees shell and damages the bees. If you don?t have a vacuum release valve on your bee vac you will have a lot of dead bees and most of them will bee wet from their stomachs emptying out when you turn off the vacuum.
Jim Altmiller
There are a few things about your theory that make me suspect. First of all a perfect vacuum is only 14psi which wouldn't hurt anything except for breathing animals. I can't breath might make you puke. Vacuum pressure increases when the hose is closed off so it should never get even close to 14psi. The other thing that happens when the hose is close off is that the air velocity goes to zilch so you don't want to do that. Some people use variacs to limit "suction" but what they are doing is limiting air velocity. I am not saying you shouldn't have some control on a bee vac just saying that what you want to control is air velocity.
Ace,
I wish you were correct, if so it would make vacuuming up bees easier. The first time I went to use my Robo type bee vacuum, i was still building it but wanted to try it out. I did not have the vacuum release valve installed. It was a large swarm on a wall and when I opened it up 3/4 of the bees were dead and they were wet and sticky from the honey in their stomachs. It was the first time I used a shop vac instead of a small hand held unit. The vacuum suction was too strong
Bees are breathing animals. They have spiracals.
Jim Altmiller
I was taught vacuum is measured in inches, meaning inches of mercury, not PSI. Could you link me to the PSI measurements, please.
Brian, Jim is accurate. I have not tried the ROBO Vac but I have heard nothing but good things about it. In fact if I had not already built mine, I might have tried the RoBo instead had I learned of it first. I just happened across my building idea from watching cutout videos mentioned above first, and the style I built is similar to what JP and Schawee was using. Find the building instructions and check it out. You will find a pressure relief as Jim described. To my knowledge all bee vacs have some type of simple pressure relief.
I realize we are drifting from the main heading title, but bee vacs do tie in directly to cutouts for most of us. Robo really did a good job inventing this type vac! Jeff Horchoff has a video showing step by step instructions of how he built his ROBO vac.
The video is titled: "Got bees? Get a Robo vac."
Quote from: iddee on June 01, 2021, 10:33:22 AM
I was taught vacuum is measured in inches, meaning inches of mercury, not PSI. Could you link me to the PSI measurements, please.
https://www.google.com/search?q=atmospheric+pressure+in+psi&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS590US590&sxsrf=ALeKk00PnwdnE7XnXDtlN5Qqx8DCfH_5RQ%3A1622721391460&ei=b8O4YNPAG5ew5NoPusaGgAE&oq=1+atmosphere+of+pressure&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYBjIHCCMQsAMQJzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQRxCwAzIHCAAQsAMQQ1AAWABgpSloAXACeACAAaICiAGiApIBAzItMZgBAKoBB2d3cy13aXrIAQrAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz
Most people have no idea on what 30 in of mercury is but they might have an idea of 14psi.
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on June 01, 2021, 09:36:47 AM
The vacuum suction was too strong
Of course, but is that a result of negative pressure on the bee or the fact that it got slammed into something hard due to too much air velocity? Puking requires muscle action. If it was a case of negative pressure fluid would come out their butt as much as it comes out their mouth. I won't deny that the bees don't puke. Imagine the ride they get on the way to the collection device.
Some people use blowers to evacuate supers (positive pressure). If it is too strong bees will get killed slamming into things on the way out and create quite a mess.
It is likely that the bees have full stomachs of honey or nectar. After all you are smoking them.
The pressure relief is used to reduce, (slamming), Injury you might check out the videos put out by Colorado bee vacs, it explains in detail. Suction pressure must be reduced in a bee vac in comparison to a regular vac or you will get the results Jim described on his first use.
Glad to see this discussion on bee vacs. I can?t comment on PSI or inches of mercury but I can comment on suction and slamming, exploding bees.
I?m no world class cutout expert but I have done close to 100, I reckon, and I've learned some hard lessons. I also have 3 different vac systems: Owens Bucket Vac, Robo vac, Colorado.
-Use VERY little smoke. The more smoke, the more honey sucked up, the more exploding bees inside the hose - if basic guidelines not followed (below). (Learned this from watching JP.)
- Pay careful attention to suction force. Too many and they bang into each other - exploding bees.
- Use the shortest hose possible - 8 feet max. Long hoses kill bees - guaranteed. Hose clogs with bees, domino effect of exploding bees along with stinging each other.
- Vacuum very few bees at a time. Too many bees at once, colliding bees inside hose and container, exploding bees, stinging each other.
- Have a cushion on the back end of your bucket vac opposite the inlet, to facilitate a soft landing. I use foam inside my Owen?s.
Good stuff 2Sox. I agree that suction is the most important aspect. When I built my vac I was very thoughtful of just the negative effects that you, Jim, and Brian described. To much suction and they will clog up just as you say. Not enough suction an you get nowhere fast. With the suction set Just Right, the bees are vacuumed in at pace that clogging is all but eliminated and so is injury.
For my hose, I searched for a pool vac hose, and not just any pool hose. I have found that though (ridged) on the outside, some brands are almost smooth on the inside, which is just what we need in my opinion. I found this "perfect hose" at either Lowes or Home Depot, I am thinking it was Home Depot. 50' I cut it 20'/30' giving me two hoses.
I have vacuumed bees as high as 30' feet speaking of swarms. As we know swarming bees are usually filled with honey in order to be prepared for an fresh new start. I have had great success in not losing bees. Suction is the key factor, if not the most important factor. But really, all set up together, makes for a fine tuned well functional and dependable machine.
I suppose JP is versatile in bee vacs like you 2Sox. In this video he is using the ROBO (BushKill) vac and a hose that looks like mine. Notice he is using the flat style end. My end is the tapered round style, about the same size which slides perfectly inside the pool vac hose. Then I use tape to secure the two together. That JP is one bee cut-out machine! But so is 2Sox with 100 cutouts! Keep up the good work and good service to the public!!!
https://youtu.be/48lhXfDUJq0
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 03, 2021, 08:00:19 PM
I suppose JP is versatile in bee vacs like you 2Sox. In this video he is using the ROBO (BushKill) vac and a hose that looks like mine. Notice he is using the flat style end. My end is the tapered round style, about the same size which slides perfectly inside the pool vac hose. Then I use tape to secure the two together. That JP is one bee cut-out machine! But so is 2Sox with 100 cutouts! Keep up the good work and good service to the public!!!
Great video! JP was young in this one. He says his ?brand new Bushkill (Robo) bee vac". These have not been manufactured for several years so I figure it was filmed some time ago. I consider JP to be the guru of cutouts but I?d never use a hose that length - that?s a pool hose, btw. I did once, and the colony did not survive the cutout. Used a shop vac hose the same length another time. Enormous mortality. Learned my lesson. On cutouts at those heights, my equipment goes right into the bucket lift or up on the scaffold, right next to the bees. I have climber?s lines to bring up my equipment onto the scaffold.
As far as I know and have checked, the BushKill bee vac is definitely still available. See
Bushkill Bee Vac https://www.beevac.com
We can read more thoughts on this subject here at beemaster under the EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS heading subject,
Title: "my version of Colorado beevac". Some good stuff there.
A guy on another forum just bought one from Robo.
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 03, 2021, 10:45:03 AM
The pressure relief is used to reduce, (slamming), Injury you might check out the videos put out by Colorado bee vacs, it explains in detail. Suction pressure must be reduced in a bee vac in comparison to a regular vac or you will get the results Jim described on his first use.
Yes, some truths here but the terms being used are misunderstood. Someone wanting to make their own bee vac could be misguided. Another topic should be started on bee vac design. I am more than happy to discuss.
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 04, 2021, 03:49:38 AM
As far as I know and have checked, the BushKill bee vac is definitely still available. See
Bushkill Bee Vac https://www.beevac.com
We can read more thoughts on this subject here at beemaster under the EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS heading subject,
Title: "my version of Colorado beevac". Some good stuff there.
Thanks, Ben. I wasn?t aware of that. There was a long time it was not in production and the last time I checked it wasn?t available. Good to know he?s back. It?s a great system.
Quote from: Acebird on June 04, 2021, 09:11:12 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 03, 2021, 10:45:03 AM
The pressure relief is used to reduce, (slamming), Injury you might check out the videos put out by Colorado bee vacs, it explains in detail. Suction pressure must be reduced in a bee vac in comparison to a regular vac or you will get the results Jim described on his first use.
Yes, some truths here but the terms being used are misunderstood. Someone wanting to make their own bee vac could be misguided. Another topic should be started on bee vac design. I am more than happy to discuss.
Another topic already has been started and referred. See
EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS heading subject,
Title: "my version of Colorado beevac". Some good stuff there.
> - Use the shortest hose possible - 8 feet max. Long hoses kill bees - guaranteed. Hose clogs with bees, domino effect of exploding bees along with stinging each other
2Sox I can?t understand why you have experienced failure with hoses over 8 foot. As I have stated here before. When retrieving hard to reach swarms, with the 16 foot pool pole extention, 10 foot of ladder along with my height added, I sometimes use every inch of this 30 foot hose with great success achieved. If not so high I simply lay excess hose on the ground or use the 20 foot hose. There has to be some difference or variance in what we are doing. That is why I referred to the heading about suction, above. I am not intending to be disrespectful or argumentative. I believe you are a GREAT cutout person and salute you for your good work and service to the public along with doing your part to save bees. 🐝 I want to encourage you to keep up the good work and sharing your experiences. Let us know how the (honey robber) works out if you get the opportunity to use it.
Blessings
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 04, 2021, 12:06:32 PM
> - Use the shortest hose possible - 8 feet max. Long hoses kill bees - guaranteed. Hose clogs with bees, domino effect of exploding bees along with stinging each other
2Sox I can?t understand why you have experienced failure with hoses over 8 foot. As I have stated here before. When retrieving hard to reach swarms, with the 16 foot pool pole extention, 10 foot of ladder along with my height added, I sometimes use every inch of this 30 foot hose with great success achieved. If not so high I simply lay excess hose on the ground or use the 20 foot hose. There has to be some difference or variance in what we are doing. That is why I referred to the heading about suction, above. I am not intending to be disrespectful or argumentative. I believe you are a GREAT cutout person and salute you for your good work and service to the public along with doing your part to save bees. 🐝 I want to encourage you to keep up the good work and sharing your experiences. Let us know how the (honey robber) works out if you get the opportunity to use it.
Blessings
Thanks Ben for your feedback and your kind words. I?m not sure what went wrong but I do know that those bees had a tendency to clog inside the hoses at that length. It?s heartbreaking to see that kind of mortality. I won?t EVER use a long hose again on cutouts.
Also, if the main vac unit is that far away from you, you have absolutely no control over suction force. Those of us who do cutouts and swarm catches with vacuums know that bees always get trapped inside the screened vac inlets. The more trapped bees, the more your suction increases. It sneaks up on you and you have to be very diligent about watching for this. The Owens and the Bushkill both have screens to prevent bees from getting sucked in and that?s where they get trapped by the suction. The Colorado does not. I placed screening on that with some silicone. Also, the Owens does not have a filter on it and I?ve already replaced one motor because of burnout from the debris that got sucked in over time. Now I have some screening on that too. Helps a little if you know the design. I also placed a foam AC filter inside the Colorado vac to filter out dust and debris which is part of every cutout.
Quote from: 2Sox on June 04, 2021, 12:44:38 PM
I also placed a foam AC filter inside the Colorado vac to filter out dust and debris which is part of every cutout.
The filters should remain in the vacuum unless you are using a Kirby as the vacuum source. It is the only vacuum that I know that doesn't pass the suction air through the armature.
On long hoses you have to be careful not to stop the air flow by choking up the nozzle. And definitely don't put your hand over it to check the suction. I wonder if transitioning to larger size hose would help or hurt. Maybe start with a 1 in hose for 6 ft then go to a 2 in hose for 10 ft and go the rest of the way with a 3 in hose. Not sure if that would create dead spots at the transition points where bees would clump.
Quote from: Acebird on June 05, 2021, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: 2Sox on June 04, 2021, 12:44:38 PM
I also placed a foam AC filter inside the Colorado vac to filter out dust and debris which is part of every cutout.
The filters should remain in the vacuum unless you are using a Kirby as the vacuum source. It is the only vacuum that I know that doesn't pass the suction air through the armature.
On long hoses you have to be careful not to stop the air flow by choking up the nozzle. And definitely don't put your hand over it to check the suction. I wonder if transitioning to larger size hose would help or hurt. Maybe start with a 1 in hose for 6 ft then go to a 2 in hose for 10 ft and go the rest of the way with a 3 in hose. Not sure if that would create dead spots at the transition points where bees would clump.
Thanks, Ace, but I?m having some difficulty understanding some of what you wrote. If you're familiar with the three vacs I mentioned, only the detachable head that inserts into the Bushkill has a self contained filter. It?s easy to remove for cleaning. Neither the Colorado nor the Owens have self contained filters. Invites motor burnout. (I keep the motors for each of these vacs running all the time during cutouts - to prevent bee escape and bee suffocation. This invites motor burnout also after awhile.)
I don?t know what you refer to by ?armature?. Also, it?s absolutely necessary to check suction force - reason being obvious - so why do you advise not doing so?
Long hoses? It?s a gamble whatever the diameter - and I used all of them. Never again for me. Disaster looking for a time and place to happen.
I too, am confused. lol
My vac is none of the above. I built my vac with peg board as I seen of the colorado vac user explanation video. I do not know how the suction motor on the colorado is set up. I set mine up by using my imagination. My suction power source is a Shop-Vac brand motor. I used a multi function tool to cut off the filter housing part. I knew this part would not be necessary as the top of my catch box is equipped with fine window screen the entire size of a langstroth box 16" wide by 19 7/8" long.. This serves two functions, as top of the catch box and a filter if you will. This fine mesh window screen stops any derbies from ever entering into the peg board section, which would stop derbies from entering the vacuum motor section. I am not as experienced as you Brain, or two sox. I have done a few cutouts and several swarm catches (anywhere form 30-40). All of varying heights and distances. I have never had my screen, or any part of my screen to clog; Period.
I have not had bees clog up in my hose when set up as I described in an earlier post here when using either hose, the 20' or the 30'. I have never had the suction to decrease or increase while doing a job of either length or height. I have lost very very few bees, meaning very few. I have never killed a queen and have caught multiple queens in a single swarm by using this method.
I am very very encouraged by my design after reading your post here. I did not realize what I had stumbled onto when I built this vac!!! I can only speak for my vac as I have not used or even seen any other. Only what I have seen and watched on videos can I compare. I am wondering if perhaps I should begin building and marketing mine? lol :shocked:
Quote from: 2Sox on June 05, 2021, 10:45:58 AM
If you're familiar with the three vacs I mentioned, only the detachable head that inserts into the Bushkill has a self contained filter. It?s easy to remove for cleaning. Neither the Colorado nor the Owens have self contained filters. Invites motor burnout. (I keep the motors for each of these vacs running all the time during cutouts - to prevent bee escape and bee suffocation. This invites motor burnout also after awhile.)
I am not familiar with the details of each design and I have never done a cut out but I have years, and years, and years of experience with machine design and this is a machine. In a normal shop vac the suction air passes over the armature and stator of the motor to keep the windings cool. If you remove the filters dirt will pass through the motor and destroy the armature as you have found out. What Phil did is a bad idea both for the armature and the possibility of fire from bits of wax, honey and propolise going through the motor and around the arching brushes. A screen is not adequate. I doubt if any of the bee vacs offered today could pass UL. because of this problem.
QuoteAlso, it?s absolutely necessary to check suction force - reason being obvious - so why do you advise not doing so?
Because the instant you close off the hose you stop air flow in the hose. If you stop air flow even for a few seconds the bees can clump. Now the instant you unblock the hose the mass of bees that clumped will be shot into the container like a ball throwing machine for batting practice. I am trying to get you off the idea of "suction" (pressure) as what you need to control because what you need to control is air flow (velocity). You should look for an air flow indicator mounted on the nozzle end of the hose that will give you a constant indication while you are using it. Then if the bees build up on the screen in your catch box you will see it as a loss of air flow. By using the devise you will determine what values are safe and when you are pushing your luck.
Now for controlling air flow you have two options. One is the traditional way of opening up another hole which let air in there by decreasing the amout of air that is drawn through you vacuum hose.. The second way is to down size the pump or reduce its speed. Actually I should mention a third way which is to increase the dia of the hose.
Because I have no experience I cannot tell you what air velocity would be good. I could advise you what to do if it is too high or too low but I think you can figure that part out yourself with the three options I have suggested.
Suggestions on hoses: The hose should be smooth on the inside so not a pool hose.
Brian I have never seen a speck of dust come from the exhaust of my bee vac that was visible to the naked eye. I have however seen a lot of dust come out of the exhaust of a regular shop-vac when vacuuming sheetrock dust or other types of dust when a large amount is hit at one time, even with the manufactured filter attached. (Many times). Though it might have happened, I have never heard of shop-vac catching on fire when used in nasty-dusty construction circumstances, no matter what source of dust material was being vacuumed. Where I have made cutouts I have yet to find a numerous amount of dust except for bits and pieces of loose derbies caused by deconstruction when making or cutting my way in to reach the hive. I have never found "bees wax dust". I have however, found (bits of insulation inside the catch box) though rarely, I have found very small pieces of comb from time to time, very small because I have my suction set for picking up very light objects such as bees. Anything heavier is not picked up by my vac. As stated before, (Reduced Suction) is the key to not killing bees.
No derbies are found at the top of my catch box where the screen is located. Never have I found any insulation, or anything else on, or stuck to the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long catch box screen. Adding I have ran this vac for as long as 3 hours straight, numerous times, when doing a difficult cutout, I would be afraid to guess how many hours this vac has ran. Hours upon hours all total, counting a few cutouts and several swarm recoveries, at least 30-40, and no sign of motor failure or fatigue is present. But if it would ease your mind, lol, I could easily attach an adapted filter to the bottom of the cut off vac housing made of Shop-Vac filter material in a few minutes easily, 🙂flush so nothing changes the results or dynamics of this bee-vac.
Being you are experienced with vacs etc I am surprised you are missing the point of this design. Perhaps you need a clearer description on my part to relate the set up to you. The motor is on top with a sheet of pegboard beneath. Their is an empty space between the motor and the pegboard 16" wide by 19 7/8" long where there is nothing. Not a thing, only empty open hollow space. This hollow space between the two, allows suction build up for an even suction across the entire pegboard. Which equals an even suction through the peg board holes, which equals a equal suction through the catch box screen. As stated, the pegboard dimensions are 16" wide by 19 7/8" long, same as a langstroth bee hive. Each individual peg hole is a suction inlet in itself, independent of the other, with an evenly distributed suction through the individual peg holes throughout the entire top of this set up. There are hundreds of these peg holes in this vac pegboard, making hundreds independent suction inlets to the vacuum motor itself. Beneath this, is the screen, which is attached to and independent catch box, same size, 16" wide by 19 7/8" long. The vac box with the peg board is set on top of the catch box/screen with a perfect union fit, and an added seal from the diameter of the rim of the pegboard where the two meet, now making one joined unit.
A hose hole is in place at one end of the catch box for the benefit of the suction hose attaching. Suction friction is a constant equal throughout the hose travel from the time the bee enters the hose to the time the bee exits the hose into the catch box. Once the bee and or a derby reaches the catch box as described, pressure is instantly relesed inside the catch box because of the design of the many suction access holes of the peg board before reaching the suction of the motor. (Physics) The scution of each of these hundreds of peg holes are greatly reduced individually. The bees come in for a soft easy landing. This is why no foam is needed for the opposite end of the inlet box. Bees do not need protecting from crashing or being banged around or against the other end of the box. Nor are there any derbies coming crashing in, banging against the opposite side of the inlet box or the screen for the same reason. Bees come in for a soft easy landing. Whatever you may vacuum instantly settles to the bottom of the box. Derbies large enough to bee vacuumed, such as a bee for instance, are not (pulled) to the top because of the greatly reduced inside pressure of the design, (thanks to the peg board). Now, If we were to purposely cover X numbers of peg holes then things might start changing if enough of the holes were purposely plugged. Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box, If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose openiing, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box, but we don't because of design.
As far as the pool hose I agree, the smoother the better. The pressure relief valve that Jim and I are talking about if for the benefit of the reduced suction, With my design it is mainly for hose pressure suction reduction. As 2Sox stated to many bees coming in at one time could cause clogging. You can read the following from post 38 where smooth hose was mentioned and covered.
"For my hose, I searched for a pool vac hose, and not just any pool hose. I have found that though (ridged) on the outside, some brands are almost smooth on the inside, which is just what we need in my opinion. I found this "perfect hose" at either Lowes or Home Depot, I am thinking it was Home Depot. 50' I cut it 20'/30' giving me two hoses."
Static Electricity?
Some really thought out questions and answers presented on this thread; very detailed: psi, mm of mercury, velocity, pressure, smooth vrs ribbed hose. All this detailed physics to which I am mostly at a loss. Good thread 2Sox, although, I am a lil off subject hoping its ok?
So I have a question regarding Static electricity. Why does vacuuming bees not generate static electricity? For that matter, why does a swarm not generate static such as packing peanuts. All those bees rubbing together in a swarm??? I would think static for certain. However, I realize there is no static within a swarm of bees or a full hive for that matter. Physics is a field of little, very little understanding to me, so I am asking. Why no static?
Mr Van, Honestly I don't know, I have never heard of a bee vac blowing up or catching on fire, whatever the brand, make, or design or features. If bee static is possible, I would be more concerned about the plastic bucket type. The same question can go for static of using a shop vac used in construction. Do bees produce static electricity? A good question for our friend The15thMember! :grin:
I'm on my way!! :grin: I haven't been following this thread closely, so sorry if I'm missing something. I think that bees don't build up a static charge in a swarm or a vacuum bucket because they are all made of the same material. To built up a static charge from rubbing two things together, one has to be attractive to electrons and the other has to lose them, because it's the difference in the positive and negative charges in the objects that causes them to stick together, like rubbing a balloon on your hair, for example. As you rub the balloon on your hair, the balloon picks up electrons from your hair which makes it negatively charged and your hair positively charged, which makes them attract and want to stick together, kind of like a magnet. But the bees are all made of the same material, chitin, which means they would all lose/gain electrons at the same level, which wouldn't lead to a difference in the charges.
Member with you detailed answer, I think you are correct. I am of the opinion after hearing you answer, that bees do not generate static electricity. Makes me feel better! Who wants to get burned up or blown up from using a bee vac charged with a box laced with bees filled with static electricity! lol
:grin: Thanks. :happy:
.
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 05, 2021, 10:46:36 PM
Member with you detailed answer, I think you are correct. I am of the opinion after hearing you answer, that bees do not generate static electricity. Makes me feel better! Who wants to get burned up or blown up from using a bee vac charged with a box laced with bees filled with static electricity! lol
:grin: Thanks. :happy:
No problem. I'm here all week. :cool: :wink: :cheesy:
Sorry if I'm belaboring an off-topic subject here, but a related fun fact is that bees actually build up a slight positive charge when they fly and pollen has a slight negative charge which helps pollen to stick to the bees' bodies.
Quote from: The15thMember on June 06, 2021, 12:46:58 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 05, 2021, 10:46:36 PM
Member with you detailed answer, I think you are correct. I am of the opinion after hearing you answer, that bees do not generate static electricity. Makes me feel better! Who wants to get burned up or blown up from using a bee vac charged with a box laced with bees filled with static electricity! lol
:grin: Thanks. :happy:
No problem. I'm here all week. :cool: :wink: :cheesy:
Sorry if I'm belaboring an off-topic subject here, but a related fun fact is that bees actually build up a slight positive charge when they fly and pollen has a slight negative charge which helps pollen to stick to the bees' bodies.
Member if we are off topic it is my fault. I first chimed in here with an idea trying to help 2Sox with his unique problem with this cutout by telling about of the honey robber stuff I had seen on a video years ago then searched, found, and posted the video here for his benefit. 2Sox is a dedicated beekeeper who is also a dedicated cut out person. It was my intention to help him with his situation concerning his cut out going sour. The video that I posted showing the use of the stuff, also showed the guys using a BEE vac, I commented that it would have been easy to retrieve the cluster that was ran out of the hollow tree which was hanging on a limb with a bee vac and this is where the BEE vac part took off... My apologies to you Mr 2Sox for drifting so far away from OP.
MOdified to change the word shop vac to bee vac. I posted BEE in caped letter to show the change.
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 05, 2021, 08:47:18 PM
Brian I have never seen a speck of dust come from the exhaust of my bee vac that was visible to the naked eye. I have however seen a lot of dust come out of the exhaust of a regular shop-vac when vacuuming sheetrock dust or other types of dust when a large amount is hit at one time, even with the manufactured filter attached. (Many times). Though it might have happened, I have never heard of shop-vac catching on fire when used in nasty-dusty construction circumstances, no matter what source of dust material was being vacuumed. Where I have made cutouts I have yet to find a numerous amount of dust except for bits and pieces of loose derbies caused by deconstruction when making or cutting my way in to reach the hive. I have never found "bees wax dust". I have however, found (bits of insulation inside the catch box) though rarely, I have found very small pieces of comb from time to time, very small because I have my suction set for picking up very light objects such as bees. Anything heavier is not picked up by my vac. As stated before, (Reduced Suction) is the key to not killing bees.
No derbies are found at the top of my catch box where the screen is located. Never have I found any insulation, or anything else on, or stuck to the 16" wide by 19 7/8" long catch box screen. Adding I have ran this vac for as long as 3 hours straight, numerous times, when doing a difficult cutout, I would be afraid to guess how many hours this vac has ran. Hours upon hours all total, counting a few cutouts and several swarm recoveries, at least 30-40, and no sign of motor failure or fatigue is present. But if it would ease your mind, lol, I could easily attach an adapted filter to the bottom of the cut off vac housing made of Shop-Vac filter material in a few minutes easily, 🙂flush so nothing changes the results or dynamics of this bee-vac.
Being you are experienced with vacs etc I am surprised you are missing the point of this design. Perhaps you need a clearer description on my part to relate the set up to you. The motor is on top with a sheet of pegboard beneath. Their is an empty space between the motor and the pegboard 16" wide by 19 7/8" long where there is nothing. Not a thing, only empty open hollow space. This hollow space between the two, allows suction build up for an even suction across the entire pegboard. Which equals an even suction through the peg board holes, which equals a equal suction through the catch box screen. As stated, the pegboard dimensions are 16" wide by 19 7/8" long, same as a langstroth bee hive. Each individual peg hole is a suction inlet in itself, independent of the other, with an evenly distributed suction through the individual peg holes throughout the entire top of this set up. There are hundreds of these peg holes in this vac pegboard, making hundreds independent suction inlets to the vacuum motor itself. Beneath this, is the screen, which is attached to and independent catch box, same size, 16" wide by 19 7/8" long. The vac box with the peg board is set on top of the catch box/screen with a perfect union fit, and an added seal from the diameter of the rim of the pegboard where the two meet, now making one joined unit.
A hose hole is in place at one end of the catch box for the benefit of the suction hose attaching. Suction friction is a constant equal throughout the hose travel from the time the bee enters the hose to the time the bee exits the hose into the catch box. Once the bee and or a derby reaches the catch box as described, pressure is instantly relesed inside the catch box because of the design of the many suction access holes of the peg board before reaching the suction of the motor. (Physics) The scution of each of these hundreds of peg holes are greatly reduced individually. The bees come in for a soft easy landing. This is why no foam is needed for the opposite end of the inlet box. Bees do not need protecting from crashing or being banged around or against the other end of the box. Nor are there any derbies coming crashing in, banging against the opposite side of the inlet box or the screen for the same reason. Bees come in for a soft easy landing. Whatever you may vacuum instantly settles to the bottom of the box. Derbies large enough to bee vacuumed, such as a bee for instance, are not (pulled) to the top because of the greatly reduced inside pressure of the design, (thanks to the peg board). Now, If we were to purposely cover X numbers of peg holes then things might start changing if enough of the holes were purposely plugged. Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box, If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose openiing, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box, but we don't because of design.
As far as the pool hose I agree, the smoother the better. The pressure relief valve that Jim and I are talking about if for the benefit of the reduced suction, With my design it is mainly for hose pressure suction reduction. As 2Sox stated to many bees coming in at one time could cause clogging. You can read the following from post 38 where smooth hose was mentioned and covered.
"For my hose, I searched for a pool vac hose, and not just any pool hose. I have found that though (ridged) on the outside, some brands are almost smooth on the inside, which is just what we need in my opinion. I found this "perfect hose" at either Lowes or Home Depot, I am thinking it was Home Depot. 50' I cut it 20'/30' giving me two hoses."
Ben,
EXCELLENT post. Extremely clear. Thank you. And I had not known the reason for the holes and the peg board before you described it here. Very logical and scientific. Thank you for that. For those interested in the Colorado Bee Vac that Ben described, here is the website:
https://www.coloradobeerescue.com
Here is the Bushkill:
https://www.beevac.com
As I indicated in a previous post, I made a slight addition to the Colorado. I placed a piece of plain foam AC filter on top of the screen to filter out fine particles of debris. It covers the entire screen length and width. I can assure you and others who do, or will be doing cutouts, you WILL get debris sucked into your vac. It is unavoidable. I learned this through experience.
I keep any vac I use running from the time I start vacuuming until I end the cutout. The longest cutout I ever did was ten hours on a 35 foot scaffold with 3 of us and the nastiest bunch of bees I ever removed. Teaneck, NJ. (I gave away that colony to a good friend and it was placed in a cemetery!) So that motor was running for 10 hours. Imagine how much stuff got sucked in with the bees. That was with the Bushkill.
Also, imagine how much wear these motors get. I have burned out one detachable vac head for my Bushkill (Ridgid brand) and one vac head on my Owens and replaced both.
With the Bushkill (Robo) vac, I must remove and clean the filter housing and filter in the detachable vac motor after each cutout. It is ALWAYS dirty and clogged with debris. Sometimes it?s bad and at other times not so bad. The point being is there is always debris going into the hose along with the bees. Yes, the screen on both the Bushkill and the Colorado filter out most of the big stuff, but there is still stuff that gets through. That is why I added the AC filter to the Colorado.
And by the way, the Colorado system uses the exact hose you describe.
BIG edit to my post. Should have read: Cut Outt Gone Sour. Sorry guys. But it became clear as the thread continued anyway. Thanks for your patience.
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 05, 2021, 08:47:18 PM
Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box, If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose openiing, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box,
No this is completely wrong. You are using terms you don't understand. If you plug up the peg board the pressure and air flow go to 0 in the catch box. On the other side of the peg board between it and the motor the air flow again goes to 0 but the pressure goes to maximum. In the case of the bees puking this is the most likely cause. I don't know how I can explain it better to you what the difference is between air pressure and air flow. They are NOT the same.
Now what you explained about your design has got me thinking about the shop vac design. I just looked at the two shop vacs I have (Rigid) and they do indeed separate the suction air from the cooling air that passes through the motor. They must have added another fan to cool the armature and kept it separate from the suction air. So in this case I have to retract what I said about filters. If the air flows are separate then the filters mean nothing and the debris can not cause a fire hazard.
Ok lets get back to what you said about the hose entering into the catch box. The PRESSURE remains the same but the air flow changes drastically. It drops like a rock. That is why the bees slow down and don't hit the wall on the other side. But if there was an elbow in the end of a hose like in most shop vacs it would smash bees. That is the main difference between the standard shop vac and a bee vac that has a catch box. Also the filter cage is out of the way so it is a longer distance before there is an obstruction to hit.
If I were to design a bee vac I would not use peg board. I would use 1/8 screen and make it the largest area possible. Pegboard closes off more then half the area. As 2sox has indicated when the bees cover this screen trouble starts. They are going to cover the screen because the air flow has slowed down to a point where they can move around and congregate on the screen. If a helper was present he/she might be able to tamp the catch box on the ground to knock them off the screen. The trouble is if the catch box is not something you can see through you don't know if you are doing any good. Those that were designing bee vacs for market should have made the first one out of Plexiglas or better yet polycarbonate. At least have windows in it so you can see what is happening.
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 10:05:22 AM
So that motor was running for 10 hours.
OMG! Ten hours in the hot sun ... no wonder you are burning up the motor. A shop vac is not designed to run continuous for long periods of time. If this is what is required a shop vac motor should not be used. They have brushes. They might be cheap but it makes perfect sense that they burn up. You want to use a blower that has a squirrel cage motor, no brushes. A better option might be gas powered blower but ten hours continuous is a very demanding design criteria. Holy cow.
>Ben,
EXCELLENT post. Extremely clear. Thank you. And I had not known the reason for the holes and the peg board before you described it here. Very logical and scientific. Thank you for that. For those interested in the Colorado Bee Vac that Ben described, here is the website:
https://www.coloradobeerescue.com
Here is the Bushkill:
https://www.beevac.com
<
Thank you 2Sox, your kind words are much appreciated. Actually I was not describing the Colorado vac but my home build Colorado (type) vac. I can not speak for Colorado. I have neverpersonally seen one, only what I have watched on videos. I have had excellent results and experiences with my vac. Wishing the same for everyone else, whichever design they may chose. And again I apologize to you for my getting off track on your topic.
PS if you use the honey robber please let me in on the results.
Quote from: Acebird on June 05, 2021, 03:49:14 PM
Quote from: 2Sox on June 05, 2021, 10:45:58 AM
If you're familiar with the three vacs I mentioned, only the detachable head that inserts into the Bushkill has a self contained filter. It?s easy to remove for cleaning. Neither the Colorado nor the Owens have self contained filters. Invites motor burnout. (I keep the motors for each of these vacs running all the time during cutouts - to prevent bee escape and bee suffocation. This invites motor burnout also after awhile.)
I am not familiar with the details of each design and I have never done a cut out but I have years, and years, and years of experience with machine design and this is a machine. In a normal shop vac the suction air passes over the armature and stator of the motor to keep the windings cool. If you remove the filters dirt will pass through the motor and destroy the armature as you have found out. What Phil did is a bad idea both for the armature and the possibility of fire from bits of wax, honey and propolise going through the motor and around the arching brushes. A screen is not adequate. I doubt if any of the bee vacs offered today could pass UL. because of this problem.
QuoteAlso, it?s absolutely necessary to check suction force - reason being obvious - so why do you advise not doing so?
Because the instant you close off the hose you stop air flow in the hose. If you stop air flow even for a few seconds the bees can clump. Now the instant you unblock the hose the mass of bees that clumped will be shot into the container like a ball throwing machine for batting practice. I am trying to get you off the idea of "suction" (pressure) as what you need to control because what you need to control is air flow (velocity). You should look for an air flow indicator mounted on the nozzle end of the hose that will give you a constant indication while you are using it. Then if the bees build up on the screen in your catch box you will see it as a loss of air flow. By using the devise you will determine what values are safe and when you are pushing your luck.
Now for controlling air flow you have two options. One is the traditional way of opening up another hole which let air in there by decreasing the amout of air that is drawn through you vacuum hose.. The second way is to down size the pump or reduce its speed. Actually I should mention a third way which is to increase the dia of the hose.
Because I have no experience I cannot tell you what air velocity would be good. I could advise you what to do if it is too high or too low but I think you can figure that part out yourself with the three options I have suggested.
Suggestions on hoses: The hose should be smooth on the inside so not a pool hose.
It is difficult for me to adequately reply to your post without sounding patronizing because since you have not worked with a bee vac I really don?t know how much you know about them. I?ll give it a try though.
It is a moot point about closing the opening of a hose - and what you describe happening to the bees inside the hose - because it is
never done. There is no reason for it.
Also, in regards to cutouts,
suction and
velocity are essentially the same concept and the terms are interchangeable.
Another point you mention is
air flow and how to control it. (By the way we can also say that this term is interchangeable with the two others above.) The design for air flow control is built into each bee vac. So there is no need to comment further on that. The things I always
constantly check during every cutout and which is
critical is suction at the hose tip. Tapping the tip gently is all you need to do to check for this. You will know immediately how to make adjustments. It?s fast and efficient. You don?t need a meter - and you don?t want one.
The idea of a meter on the hose opening to read flow is interesting but
completely impractical; if you have ever done a cutout you would understand this. There are a thousand things you need to keep track of and a meter is an extra you don?t need because there is a simpler way. (Note: Some have used a router control to adjust the electrical current coming into the unit. It works but that?s the weight of another piece of equipment and more wire that you don?t need climbing up a ladder - or onto a scaffolding.)
Quote from: Acebird on June 06, 2021, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 10:05:22 AM
So that motor was running for 10 hours.
OMG! Ten hours in the hot sun ... no wonder you are burning up the motor. A shop vac is not designed to run continuous for long periods of time. If this is what is required a shop vac motor should not be used. They have brushes. They might be cheap but it makes perfect sense that they burn up. You want to use a blower that has a squirrel cage motor, no brushes. A better option might be gas powered blower but ten hours continuous is a very demanding design criteria. Holy cow.
Yep. Ten hours. And it only took 12 years to finally burn out. I?d say that is a pretty good run for a motor. I?ll be retired before the next motor burns out on me.
Ridgid has a lifetime free replacement guarantee. To my knowledge it does not indicate maximum number of runtime hours on it. They sent me a free vacuum after I submitted the necessary information.
*By the way, my Craftsman vac motor head is still running and I have had it longer.
Quote from: Acebird on June 06, 2021, 10:13:45 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 05, 2021, 08:47:18 PM
Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box, If enough of these holes were reduced to an area equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose openiing, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box,
No this is completely wrong. You are using terms you don't understand.
> No this is completely wrong.
No; it is not.
>You are using terms you don't understand.
Wrong again
> If you plug up the peg board the pressure and air flow go to 0 in the catch box.
I did not say plug up the peg board.There are some key words that you left out on you quote. I was attempting to explain to you the importance of the peg board, and the importance of each individual peg hole, I did say. .
"Now, If we were to purposely cover X numbers of peg holes then things might start changing if enough of the holes were purposely plugged. Slowly increasing the suction pressure of what is in the catch box,
If enough of these holes were reduced to an area
equal to the area of the size of the vacuum hose opening, then we would have that same pressure inside the catch box, but we don't because of design."
Adding: I do not know how many of these peg holes would have to be left open, to equal that of the hose opening 'area'.
The standard unit of 'area' in the International System of Units ( SI ) is the meter squared (m 2 ). Area is usually measured or defined on a flat surface, also called a Euclidean plane, or on a spherical surface. I'll let you figure it out!
:shocked: :cheesy: :wink:
I hope that helps..
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 11:23:25 AM
Ridgid has a lifetime free replacement guarantee.
If you used it as a shop vac. They do not know that you are using it as a bee vac.
Good that you got 10 years out of it. Can't quite understand what your worry was about burning up the motor with a 30 ft hose. The hose length will not affect how long the motor will last.
Brian It was not 2Sox that claimed use of the 30' hose is was me. :cheesy:
Ok my turn, what have I done wrong in your view? lol, got to luv ya ......
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 11:04:21 AM
It is difficult for me to adequately reply to your post without sounding patronizing because since you have not worked with a bee vac I really don?t know how much you know about them. I?ll give it a try though.
It is a moot point about closing the opening of a hose - and what you describe happening to the bees inside the hose - because it is never done. There is no reason for it.
Do not worry about patronizing me. I am trying to help you understand what happens and why not just for you but anyone who may want to build their own bee vac. You stressed the need to constantly check suction. I made the assumption that you were doing that by putting your hand over the nozzle. That is what most people would do. Good that you don't do that.
QuoteThe things I always constantly check during every cutout and which is critical is suction at the hose tip. Tapping the tip gently is all you need to do to check for this.
I am not sure what you mean by tapping the tip gently. If this involves closing the nozzle off then I will insist that this is a bad idea. If Jim is correct that vacuum pressure causes the bees to puke that is one practice that could be the route cause.
Quote
The idea of a meter on the hose opening to read flow is interesting but completely impractical; if you have ever done a cutout you would understand this. There are a thousand things you need to keep track of and a meter is an extra you don?t need because there is a simpler way. (Note: Some have used a router control to adjust the electrical current coming into the unit. It works but that?s the weight of another piece of equipment and more wire that you don?t need climbing up a ladder - or onto a scaffolding.)
If an indicator is not necessary why are you tapping the tip? I did not say meter. Some would say it is impractical to drag a bee vac up a ladder or scaffolding when a longer hose will do the trick. Some people like to work harder. That is your right. If you want to learn the easy way maybe you could try to understand some physical properties of vacuums and why Phil is successful with a long hose. Suction, (pressure) and air flow are not the same. Cannot be discussed as being the same.
Brian it is always a pleasure to discuss things with you. There is a fellow who lives in North Mississippi and is a youtuber. "The Wall Beeman". Very nice elderly Gentleman.
Tim has a couple of videos showing a Rigid shop vac in use vacuuming bees. Actually it was his sons idea to convert the vac to not only use for bees, but also multi-purpose use. I can't remember exactly how he set it up, I am thinking he had a soft foam on the part of the inside vac which serves as a deflector, so that a bee might not slap against the hard deflector. It's been awhile and that may be wrong. Actually if memory serves me well enough, I am thinking he cut a new hole at another location of the vac housing for an inlet hose to stop bees from hitting anything that might injure them. (No pegboard was added). Tim had Tim Junior exhibit the vac. It did indeed work very well and was good for both purposes! Rigid makes a great vac, a vac they are very proud of. Of course I cant speak for Rigid, but, I don't know that they would be particular what was vacuumed? Maybe maybe not? 2Sox said he uses a filter. It could be that Rigid would be proud of 2Sox testimony of using this vac for 10 years before any problems! That is amazing! I do not know if a vac used especially for shop purpose could hold up that long, even a Rigid!
If I can find the video I will post it for you.
The actual demonstration and explanation is near the end. (7:50) Timeline.
https://youtu.be/KfMJGGQfYOU
Quote from: Acebird on June 06, 2021, 08:10:45 PM
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 11:04:21 AM
It is difficult for me to adequately reply to your post without sounding patronizing because since you have not worked with a bee vac I really don?t know how much you know about them. I?ll give it a try though.
It is a moot point about closing the opening of a hose - and what you describe happening to the bees inside the hose - because it is never done. There is no reason for it.
Do not worry about patronizing me. I am trying to help you understand what happens and why not just for you but anyone who may want to build their own bee vac. You stressed the need to constantly check suction. I made the assumption that you were doing that by putting your hand over the nozzle. That is what most people would do. Good that you don't do that.
QuoteThe things I always constantly check during every cutout and which is critical is suction at the hose tip. Tapping the tip gently is all you need to do to check for this.
I am not sure what you mean by tapping the tip gently. If this involves closing the nozzle off then I will insist that this is a bad idea. If Jim is correct that vacuum pressure causes the bees to puke that is one practice that could be the route cause.
Quote
The idea of a meter on the hose opening to read flow is interesting but completely impractical; if you have ever done a cutout you would understand this. There are a thousand things you need to keep track of and a meter is an extra you don?t need because there is a simpler way. (Note: Some have used a router control to adjust the electrical current coming into the unit. It works but that?s the weight of another piece of equipment and more wire that you don?t need climbing up a ladder - or onto a scaffolding.)
If an indicator is not necessary why are you tapping the tip? I did not say meter. Some would say it is impractical to drag a bee vac up a ladder or scaffolding when a longer hose will do the trick. Some people like to work harder. That is your right. If you want to learn the easy way maybe you could try to understand some physical properties of vacuums and why Phil is successful with a long hose. Suction, (pressure) and air flow are not the same. Cannot be discussed as being the same.
Ace,
I think we all need to pay attention to the KISS rule here.
To begin, I ?tap? the hose opening with my fingers, to check suction force. Too strong a suction kills bees - all described in earlier posts. It?s not rocket science. That?s all you need to do. The hose opening IS NOT closed off. (And ?most people? DO NOT do this either.) I thought I made that clear.
Your comment on ?some people like to work harder' was unnecessary - and borders on insulting. I explained why I do not use long hoses - I do not want to kill bees. Most people would respect that - not make such a comment. And by the way, if JP and others are successful with long hoses, that?s fine. I will not use them because I learned from experience, they are disasters.
I stand corrected: You did NOT use the term ?meter?. The term you used was air flow ?indicator'. (I won?t ask what you meant by this.)
Do you think it might be a good idea to reserve your opinions on these matters until you start doing cutouts yourself and gain some experience and practical knowledge?
I?d like to be useful to you but it is very difficult when you insist on commenting on things you haven?t lived through. There is A LOT of trial and error and we all learn - hopefully - from our mistakes.
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 09:05:56 PM
Do you think it might be a good idea to reserve your opinions on these matters until you start doing cutouts yourself and gain some experience and practical knowledge?
Short answer is no. Beemaster is a forum where topics are discussed and other people learn from the discussions. Discussions come from all walks of life. Do you want new beekeepers to be quiet because they have no experience?
The best solutions to any problem come from those with experience and those with technical knowledge. That is why the forum is so valuable. It doesn't work when someone thinks they can't learn anything from someone who has less experience then them. Such a pity.
This will be my last post to this topic.
Quote from: Acebird on June 07, 2021, 08:36:00 AM
Quote from: 2Sox on June 06, 2021, 09:05:56 PM
Do you think it might be a good idea to reserve your opinions on these matters until you start doing cutouts yourself and gain some experience and practical knowledge?
Short answer is no. Beemaster is a forum where topics are discussed and other people learn from the discussions. Discussions come from all walks of life. Do you want new beekeepers to be quiet because they have no experience?
The best solutions to any problem come from those with experience and those with technical knowledge. That is why the forum is so valuable. It doesn't work when someone thinks they can't learn anything from someone who has less experience then them. Such a pity.
This will be my last post to this topic.
Being your last post to this thread is a very good decision and I think it wise that you took the suggestion.
I personally am grateful to you for your very useful posts on other subjects in the past - and I am certain others are too. You and every person here have every right to offer opinions; that is why were are all here. And I agree with you. As you said, [/quote]The best solutions to any problems comes from those with experience and those with technical knowledge[/quote]
However, it is very difficult to discuss the challenges of the real world experience of a cutout with someone who hasn?t actually done one. Yes, there are principle of science that hold true for any issue and your comments in attempting to apply these were very useful. (You had me thinking a long time about what happens to bees if you close off the hose opening during vacuuming. But since that?s never done - as I indicated - I was not too worried about that.) But some of your suggestions could be compared to a person without a drivers license telling someone how to back up an 18 wheeler. You just do not KNOW enough about the process, or the equipment used, to say the things you did, and I think you could have given our responses more thought. Humility often goes a long way at these times.
Good disagreements and arguments always have positive results. And opinions are VERY important; crucial to any subject. But we can?t disagree or argue about something that we have no practical knowledge or experience with. It is impractical and not useful. I?m personally grateful to Ben for his patience and good nature and his gracious responses. But there is so much that can be said before it becomes an effort in futility.
All is well that ends well. I agree with you both. Discussion with experience as well as a non experienced person can, does, and will bring learned gathered knowledge. The questions and suggestions from each of you along with my shared personal experience gave each of us a chance to convey our way of thinking along with our viewpoints. The old saying two heads are better than one comes to mind. In this case I will add to that, three heads are better than one! I throughly enjoyed our discussion. Even more importantly maybe some of our future members will have different points of view to relate to if they were to decide in the future to build, buy, or design their own BEE 🐝 vac. I have no doubt that each style vac mentioned here is a good bee vac. The proof is in the pudding. 100 plus removals and cut outs by 2Sox is no joke! 30-40 mixed swarm removals and cuts outs, (mostly swarm retrievals) by me. And no telling how many by Jeff featured in his video with his RoBo vac. Thanks to you both! To bad the vac debate was not listed in a separate topic heading. Brian suggested this but the ball was already rolling! Being this may be the end of the debate, I salute you both.
PS Don?t forget me 2Sox if you are afforded the opportunity to try the honey robber. I am very curious as the results of its use.
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 07, 2021, 11:37:52 AM
PS Don?t forget me 2Sox if you are afforded the opportunity to try the honey robber. I am very curious as the results of its use.
I hope I never have to use it, but I will DEFINITELY keep you posted on that one.
Quote from: 2Sox on June 07, 2021, 12:02:29 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 07, 2021, 11:37:52 AM
PS Don?t forget me 2Sox if you are afforded the opportunity to try the honey robber. I am very curious as the results of its use.
I hope I never have to use it, but I will DEFINITELY keep you posted on that one.
:happy: