I have one hive that has been doing so well this year, fast buildup, low mites, putting on a lot of honey. When I was doing splits this spring I made sure get some daughters from this queen, Queen Guinevere. This is the same hive that was looking a little odd in April, and I'm pretty sure that they just swarmed without my knowing it because they haven't had any issues since, but because of the timing of that swarm, I didn't get to split them until May.
The split showed brood from a new queen after a couple weeks, but I think the queen must have come back from her mating flight injured or something because there was very little brood, the bees had more queen cells drawn out, and I didn't see a queen. I left them to raise another queen and checked on them yesterday to see if they had been successful. They hadn't been as there was no brood, very few bees in the hive, and the place was overrun with beetle larvae. It was too much of a mess to salvage for so few bees, so I shook them out and cleaned up the mess.
I also had an older queen quit laying on me a couple weeks ago. I was never very happy with her, so I put a frame of Guinevere's eggs in the hive so they could raise a queen from her instead. I was planning on just removing all queen cells that were on any other frames but that one, but I had the timing off and when I went in to do QC reduction there was a already a hatched queen cell on Guin's frame and on a frame from the old queen, which means I have no idea if the virgin queen in there is a daughter of Guinevere's or not. (That thread of yes2matt's that was about QC timing was helpful in me realizing that they must have used older larvae and thrown of my days as a result, so lesson learned there.)
This leaves me in an odd pickle. I really want to make sure I have some daughters of this queen going forward, and I'm nervous about going into winter with just Guinevere, since if something happens to her I'll lose out on her genes. It's already July though, and I'm not sure it's a good idea to split her hive this late. What do you guys think? Is it safer to split, or not to split?
You don't need to split to get a queen.
Don?t split. Build or buy some 2 frame nuc boxes. Either learn to graft larvae from Guine or put one frame from Guine into each of them along with 1 frame of foundation. Boost the nuc populations by tearing down any other mediocre hives.
The hive with the unknown queen. Move her into a 5 frame nuc with 3 frames of bees. Leave her to mate etc and assess her in 2 weeks. Use the rest of the hive resources for the 2F mating nucs and whatever is left you go put into Guine hive as replacements for what you skimmed from her and to keep her chugging along with minimal impact.
The take away is: never split your best performers. Only graft or skim from them. The hives to goto to get resources and tear down are the ones you are not impressed by. Maintain and promote good performers. Cull out and tear down (decimate) only the mediocre or poor.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 04, 2021, 06:47:54 PM
Don?t split. Build or buy some 2 frame nuc boxes. Either learn to graft larvae from Guine or put one frame from Guine into each of them along with 1 frame of foundation. Boost the nuc populations by tearing down any other mediocre hives.
The hive with the unknown queen. Move her into a 5 frame nuc with 3 frames of bees. Leave her to mate etc and assess her in 2 weeks. Use the rest of the hive resources for the 2F mating nucs and whatever is left you go put into Guine hive as replacements for what you skimmed from her and to keep her chugging along with minimal impact.
The take away is: never split your best performers. Only graft or skim from them. The hives to goto to get resources and tear down are the ones you are not impressed by. Maintain and promote good performers. Cull out and tear down (decimate) only the mediocre or poor.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for answering, HP. So, I don't have any nucs, and I don't really have any way to get any on short notice. Honestly, I can't seem to justify the price of nucs for my small operation, especially with the prices of wood right now. I've been looking into divider boards instead, so if I could make myself some of those, I could take one of my 8-frame mediums, and make 2 4-frame medium nucs from one box, for a fraction of the cost of a whole nuc. With that setup I could make 2 half-box sized colonies to raise some queens. Then I could either use those queens to replace any that I'm not thrilled with before winter, or I could overwinter them on top of Mama Guin's hive with a Snelgrove board or something like that. (I actually had a Snelgrove board on order about a month ago, but there was a mixup and I never got it.) Do you think that would work?
get some jester nuc boxes I think 7.00 a piece I have had some in use ten years. they are cheap, light and will last you.
Quote from: Bill Murray on July 04, 2021, 09:36:14 PM
get some jester nuc boxes I think 7.00 a piece I have had some in use ten years. they are cheap, light and will last you.
I looked these up and they are $14 a piece now. For that price I can almost buy a full-sized box.
I might have a deal for you on the jester nuc boxes Im not far from mims, and already have something in the works. PM me.
If you want to make queen cells, take a frame of eggs and put it above the honey. The bees will build queen cells since that brood is far enough from the queen for the bees to think they are queenless. Once the cells are capped You can put them in a nuc or whatever box combination you have with a couple frames of bees from another hive. That will take very little resources from your good hive. Just don't let the queen cells hatch in you original hive or you may loose you good queen.
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So, I don't have any nucs, and I don't really have any way to get any on short notice. Honestly, I can't seem to justify the price of nucs for my small operation, especially with the prices of wood right now. I've been looking into divider boards instead, so if I could make myself some of those, I could take one of my 8-frame mediums, and make 2 4-frame medium nucs from one box, for a fraction of the cost of a whole nuc. With that setup I could make 2 half-box sized colonies to raise some queens. Then I could either use those queens to replace any that I'm not thrilled with before winter, or I could overwinter them on top of Mama Guin's hive with a Snelgrove board or something like that. (I actually had a Snelgrove board on order about a month ago, but there was a mixup and I never got it.) Do you think that would work?
Member, I actually made a couple 2 frame mating nucs from a single 5 frame nuc by crafting a dividing board when I first started. I was not able to fit a 3 frame and 2 frame in a 5 frame box. I could only get two, 2 frames set up when using a 5 frame box. I do not know if you will be capable of splitting your 8 frame into two 4 framers. Perhaps a three frame on one side and a four on the other. But that shouldn't be a hindrance for what you are doing.
Or you could simply use a follow board, increasing the size of frame capacity when needed by sliding the follow board wider, allowing more frames as needed.
Ben
You can make nucs out of pallet wood. Coat of paint and you have 10 years. Buy paint at garage sales, very cheap, color not relevent for a nuc.
They normally don't spend much of the year in damp weather and will last.
Very resourceful Oldbeavo. Their is a fellow in Florida that was making 5 frame Nucs from scrap 2X material. He explained there was a PVC fence company in his area which was shipped fencing material in 2X containers. He was allowed to retrieve the stuff there. He called them his Beefy Bee Hives. Steve at (Steve?s Outdoor World), his YouTube channel.
My sister made a divider board for me out of duct tape-covered heavy duty Styrofoam. She found the idea online. It's a little bit narrower than a frame, so I'll have to manually space the frames, but I do that in 7-frame supers sometimes, so it shouldn't be a problem. She also made me an entrance reducer that leaves an opening on either side. And yes, I always use pink duct tape for beekeeping. :cheesy: I "skimmed" from Guinevere today and gave each nuc area a frame with eggs/young larvae, a frame with capped brood, and a frame with stores, and the 4-frame side got an extra frame of stores that is partially drawn. Thanks for all the help everyone, and I'll keep you updated on how it goes.
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Looks good. I do have one question. Do you have separate inner covers for each side? If not it will be hard to inspect one side without bees from the other spilling over.
Quote from: cao on July 15, 2021, 11:42:01 PM
Looks good. I do have one question. Do you have separate inner covers for each side? If not it will be hard to inspect one side without bees from the other spilling over.
I don't, I was just going to try and fudge it with the one big cover. If I'm having too much trouble I could probably (have my sister) make two separate inner covers for the setup.
A simple suggestion, use a heavy fabric as and inner cover. A canvas / duck cloth. Tack pin or stable the mid part full length along the top of the pink divider board.
To check/inspect one side just take the lid off then peel and fold back the fabric for only the side you want to get into. The other side stays covered and undisturbed. The fold joint is the pinning along the divider board. It works well, easy to make and install, and cheap.
TheHoneyPump beat me to it. I was going to suggest the same thing. With the cloth laid down, you can put a standard inner cover on top when you close them up.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 16, 2021, 02:03:54 AM
A simple suggestion, use a heavy fabric as and inner cover. A canvas / duck cloth. Tack pin or stable the mid part full length along the top of the pink divider board.
To check/inspect one side just take the lid off then peel and fold back the fabric for only the side you want to get into. The other side stays covered and undisturbed. The fold joint is the pinning along the divider board. It works well, easy to make and install, and cheap.
Quote from: cao on July 16, 2021, 11:04:30 AM
TheHoneyPump beat me to it. I was going to suggest the same thing. With the cloth laid down, you can put a standard inner cover on top when you close them up.
That's a great idea! I'll definitely do that, thanks.
Cloth should work fine. I used a piece cut from a thick plastic dog food sack when I built the ones mentioned in reply 8. I used a rigid middle divider that was tight fit on both sides and bottom air stapled in place with 18 gage brad nails, and flush with the top so when the lid was in place there was zero chance of bees scurrying from one side to the other. The plastic liner worked well. Stapled down the top with t 40 staples on the rigid divider. No glue in the divider in case I wanted to again use the box as a 5 frame Nuc. Which I later did.
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 16, 2021, 11:24:50 AM
Cloth should work fine. I used a piece cut from a thick plastic dog food sack when I built the ones mentioned in reply 8. I used a rigid middle divider that was tight fit on both sides and bottom air stapled in place with 18 gage brad nails, and flush with the top so when the lid was in place there was zero chance of bees scurrying from one side to the other. The plastic liner worked well. Stapled down the top with t 40 staples on the rigid divider. No glue in the divider in case I wanted to again use the box as a 5 frame Nuc. Which I later did.
I could try using a piece of a feed sack too, I guess. I'll have to see what we have lying around. My concern with that would be a lack of ventilation in my humid climate. I use screened inner covers for top ventilation in all my hives, so I might prefer to find a fabric that can breath a little more.
Quote from: The15thMember on July 16, 2021, 12:02:07 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 16, 2021, 11:24:50 AM
Cloth should work fine. I used a piece cut from a thick plastic dog food sack when I built the ones mentioned in reply 8. I used a rigid middle divider that was tight fit on both sides and bottom air stapled in place with 18 gage brad nails, and flush with the top so when the lid was in place there was zero chance of bees scurrying from one side to the other. The plastic liner worked well. Stapled down the top with t 40 staples on the rigid divider. No glue in the divider in case I wanted to again use the box as a 5 frame Nuc. Which I later did.
I could try using a piece of a feed sack too, I guess. I'll have to see what we have lying around. My concern with that would be a lack of ventilation in my humid climate. I use screened inner covers for top ventilation in all my hives, so I might prefer to find a fabric that can breath a little more.
I understand your concern, I live close to the hot humid Mississippi River Delta. I did not have problems with humidity, but I would not want to steer you in a way that you have concerns. (I have had problems with heat in regular hives with foundationless as described in another topic) Slightly wedging the tops cured that.
You probably have already considered this but I will say it just incase, if you use a breathable cloth, use one that bees feet will not be trapped, you do not want a giant SHB/bee trap on top.
In you case of specific need, you might use a screen material (fabric type)? I do not know if bees can chew through these but even if so, they might last long enough to accomplish your needed goal. Do this at your own risk lol. If bees will not chew through this it should solve your problem?
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 16, 2021, 12:47:21 PM
I understand your concern, I live close to the hot humid Mississippi River Delta. I did not have problems with humidity, but I would not want to steer you in a way that you have concerns. (I have had problems with heat in regular hives with foundationless as described in another topic) Slightly wedging the tops cured that.
You probably have already considered this but I will say it just incase, if you use a breathable cloth, use one that bees feet will not be trapped, you do not want a giant SHB/bee trap on top.
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 16, 2021, 12:53:34 PM
In you case of specific need, you might use a screen material (fabric type)? I do not know if bees can chew through these but even if so, they might last long enough to accomplish your needed goal. Do this at your own risk lol. If bees will not chew through this it should solve your problem?
All good points. I was thinking about something pretty heavy duty, like canvas or something, because it will need to hold up to me peeling it off when they stick it down with propolis. I'll have my mom see what she can find at the store.
I wish you the best in this project. Let us know how things work out.
I have inner covers made from canvass, from 4mm plastic sheeting, and from wood. They all work, and the only difference is price.
Your ventilation should come at the bottom of the hive, with solid bottom boards have a fully open entrance. If you use open mesh bottom boards and have them fully open that is all that is necessary.
Every beekeeper needs nuc boxes, they are very handy and when stacked a colony can overwinter in them. The 5 frame boxes are the most practical in my area and I have 60 of them. If you want to have a chance to save the traits of a colony you like you must make many more splits than you need. Some will display the desired traits, most will not. You must make many more queens than are needed and evaluate them and cull. It is a lot of work, but if you do this every season you can improve the queen quality in your apiary.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 16, 2021, 06:41:44 PM
Your ventilation should come at the bottom of the hive, with solid bottom boards have a fully open entrance. If you use open mesh bottom boards and have them fully open that is all that is necessary.
It's not the bees I'm worried about with ventilation, it's the equipment. We have a lot of trouble with mold in my area, and I find that without cross-ventilation my tops mold very quickly. Some of them still mold anyway, but I've had better luck with the screened covers than with solid ones.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 16, 2021, 06:41:44 PM
Every beekeeper needs nuc boxes, they are very handy and when stacked a colony can overwinter in them. The 5 frame boxes are the most practical in my area and I have 60 of them. If you want to have a chance to save the traits of a colony you like you must make many more splits than you need. Some will display the desired traits, most will not. You must make many more queens than are needed and evaluate them and cull. It is a lot of work, but if you do this every season you can improve the queen quality in your apiary.
I definitely learned this lesson through this experience. I have only 8 hives at the moment, my target number being around 10, but I'm definitely at the stage now where I can and need to be more aggressive with culling bad queens and replacing with better ones. For the first few years, I was really concentrating mostly on keeping my bees alive, and now I that I'm fairly stable on that front, I can focus more on experimenting and breeding. I don't have any plans to raise queens or anything, but I do always want to be improving my personal stock.
We run 3, 4 and 5 frame nucs. 5's are the best for long term holding of queens for use in Autumn.
The 3's are good for splitting as they use less resources when establishing. Also 3's are good for hatching queens as there is less room to find them in.
Bees graduate up in size of nuc as the season progresses if they are not used. Some 5's may go to a hive. You do not need to increase your hive numbers as the new hive can be used to replace a dead-out.
15th; If you have a mildew problem on covers or inner covers wash the affected area with a strong bleach/water solution. Mildew spores are always around and they will grow on any surface no matter how much ventilation there is. Notice how it grows on porch decks and railings. Once it attaches to a surface it must be killed or it continues to grow. Rinse boxes, bottom boards, inner covers and top covers with bleach before putting them in use to prevent mildew from forming. It smells but the bees won't care.
Oldbeavo; I like the 5 frame box with dummy boards to start nucs with less than 5 frames. They have room to grow and can be stacked to overwinter. In my area a 5 frame nucs will have 30% overwinter losses, but if a second box of frames of food is given losses drop to 8 or 10%.
Is that divider standard height or does it touch the bottom board/screen?
The dummy board (not a division board) I make is the same size and shape as a frame except that it is cut from 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood. The board confines the bees to side of the box that holds the frames, the empty side is not used for wild comb until a nectar flow causes the bees to begin making it. When the bees become strong and a flow is on I add foundations to fill out the 5 frames the box is made for.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 16, 2021, 10:42:55 PM
The dummy board (not a division board) I make is the same size and shape as a frame except that it is cut from 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood. The board confines the bees to side of the box that holds the frames, the empty side is not used for wild comb until a nectar flow causes the bees to begin making it. When the bees become strong and a flow is on I add foundations to fill out the 5 frames the box is made for.
AR, I might have used the wrong term in reply 8 when I called this a follow board. I think we are talking about the same thing and principle?
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Or you could simply use a follow board, increasing the size of frame capacity when needed by sliding the follow board wider, allowing more frames as needed.
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 16, 2021, 11:33:05 PM
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 16, 2021, 10:42:55 PM
The dummy board (not a division board) I make is the same size and shape as a frame except that it is cut from 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood. The board confines the bees to side of the box that holds the frames, the empty side is not used for wild comb until a nectar flow causes the bees to begin making it. When the bees become strong and a flow is on I add foundations to fill out the 5 frames the box is made for.
AR, I might have used the wrong term in reply 8 when I called this a follow board. I think we are talking about the same thing and principle?
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Or you could simply use a follow board, increasing the size of frame capacity when needed by sliding the follow board wider, allowing more frames as needed.
A follower board/dummy board and a division/divider board are not the same. Follower boards do not actually wall off a section of the hive. As AR said they are the same size, shape, and bee space as a frame, and they can be used for all sorts of different manipulations. I'm assuming they act something like a wall in the bees' minds, but they don't actually seal off the area from the bees foot traffic. A division or divider board is like what I am using, tight to the box walls to prevent even one bee from crossing to the other side.
Quote from: .30WCF on July 16, 2021, 10:29:32 PM
Is that divider standard height or does it touch the bottom board/screen?
So yes, it goes all the way to the screened bottom board.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 16, 2021, 09:47:17 PM
15th; If you have a mildew problem on covers or inner covers wash the affected area with a strong bleach/water solution. Mildew spores are always around and they will grow on any surface no matter how much ventilation there is. Notice how it grows on porch decks and railings. Once it attaches to a surface it must be killed or it continues to grow. Rinse boxes, bottom boards, inner covers and top covers with bleach before putting them in use to prevent mildew from forming. It smells but the bees won't care.
Thanks AR, I'll give that a try.
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A follower board/dummy board and a division/divider board are not the same.
Yes I agree. I mentioned both divider board for one purpose in post 8 and a follow board for another purpose in post 8. I am speaking in terms of description of 'follow board' and 'dummy board', asking if they are the same thing. I believe they are, or at least serve the same purpose. I am still learning terms etc even after 3 complete seasons of beekeeping and posting here, beginning in Spring of 2018.. I rely heavily on you at times Member and you attentive research. :grin: Thanks.. :grin: :grin:
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 17, 2021, 12:35:46 AM
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A follower board/dummy board and a division/divider board are not the same.
Yes I agree. I mentioned both divider board for one purpose in post 8 and a follow board for another purpose in post 8. I am speaking in terms of description of 'follow board' and 'dummy board', asking if they are the same thing. I believe they are, or at least serve the same purpose. I am still learning terms etc even after 3 complete seasons of beekeeping and posting here, beginning in Spring of 2018.. I rely heavily on you at times Member and you attentive research. :grin: Thanks.. :grin: :grin:
Oooohhhh, sorry, I misunderstood your question. Yes, I too am under the impression they are the same. :grin:
Thanks again my friend, it was probably my fault not being as clear as I should have been lol. Yes I agree being they serve the same purpose they must be the same regardless of description of name, names and terms of bee stuff are still one of my weak areas... A continuous daily education, always something to learn. :grin: Thanks Member
Phillip
You can use polystyrene to fill out a nuc to what ever you want, we have some pieces of about 2 3/4" thick that replaces 2 frames.
You can use sides of fish boxes etc, what ever you can find.
Also good insulation
Hint:when you find little bit of white stuff outside the hive, they have run out of room and will start making their own space.
Well the experiment was a failure. I'm not exactly sure what happened. I checked on the "nucs" today and there were no bees in there at all. I noticed some robbing going on last evening, but I assume that's because the box was already abandoned. I did notice some dysentery spots earlier in the week, which may have been from a small beetle slimed section on a honey frame I gave to the one side that I didn't notice before. There was unhatched capped brood left which I think was dead, as it looked a little off. Maybe just not enough bees in the box?
As it's getting pretty late in the summer, I'm not going to try again. The queen whose mother I was questioning is doing extremely well, so I'm hopeful that she is a daughter of Guinevere, and I don't feel quite as concerned about losing the genes now. She is absolutely GIANT, the biggest queen I've ever seen! Thanks for all the help anyway, everyone. Hopefully Guin will make it through the winter, and I'll make some more splits from her in the spring.
Sorry to hear that.
Quote from: The15thMember on July 22, 2021, 07:41:22 PM
Well the experiment was a failure. I'm not exactly sure what happened. I checked on the "nucs" today and there were no bees in there at all. I noticed some robbing going on last evening, but I assume that's because the box was already abandoned. I did notice some dysentery spots earlier in the week, which may have been from a small beetle slimed section on a honey frame I gave to the one side that I didn't notice before. There was unhatched capped brood left which I think was dead, as it looked a little off. Maybe just not enough bees in the box?
As it's getting pretty late in the summer, I'm not going to try again. The queen whose mother I was questioning is doing extremely well, so I'm hopeful that she is a daughter of Guinevere, and I don't feel quite as concerned about losing the genes now. She is absolutely GIANT, the biggest queen I've ever seen! Thanks for all the help anyway, everyone. Hopefully Guin will make it through the winter, and I'll make some more splits from her in the spring.
The spring will be an easier time to make splits in your area as far as success of virgin queens becoming mated queens go. As you already know, that is a time when nectar and pollen are abundant, SHB are few, and drones should be plentiful. Wishing you good multiplying in the coming spring, along with good health to your queen of genetic hopes, "Guin".
A less risky way to do a split is the double screen between two brood boxes. If it fails you just remove the screen. If it succeeds, then you do the actual split.
Quote from: Michael Bush on July 25, 2021, 04:52:42 PM
A less risky way to do a split is the double screen between two brood boxes. If it fails you just remove the screen. If it succeeds, then you do the actual split.
Yes and probably the best way, especially this time of year. Good point Mr Bush.