I have a hive that was started from a swarm that was hived on June 21, I believe. It was hived in 3 medium boxes. I inspected it on July 3 and found that the bees had drawn out about half of the foundation in the top box and about a third of the foundation in the middle box; none was built out in the bottom box. I inspected them again on July 11 and it seemed that they hadn't built out any more foundation since the previous inspection (July 3). I inspected them again today (July 19) and found that they still hadn't built out. It seems that the bees were given too much space, so I removed the bottom box today; the hive is now down to 2 medium boxes. I started feeding them on July 3 and have been doing so ever since. It seems that feeding them is not helping them build out. All the built out comb is towards one side of the hive. The last nectar flow for the year in my location (Northwestern Washington), the blackberry flow, ended not that long ago. Given this, and the fact that feeding them is not helping, how should I get this hive to build out? Should I consolidate all of the frames with comb to one box? Should I keep on feeding them?
How are you feeding them and what ratio is the syrup? Your kind of at the end of the drawing season, but you might get enough drawn to over winter with ample amounts of 1:1 or slightly thinner syrup.
You may do better to equalize the other hives and steal a frame or two if drawn from them if they can afford it to make up the difference.
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Do you have enough hives to steal some frames to build out the hives and not cripple the older hives? This time of year I wouldn?t take more than a frame or two from a fully drawn hive without having drawn comb to put back in, but one blank frame in ten hives isn?t so bad. Otherwise a combine if they don?t draw it out by mid August.
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Quote from: Alklar20 on July 19, 2021, 11:19:42 PM
Quote from: .30WCF on July 19, 2021, 11:17:10 PM
How are you feeding them and what ratio is the syrup? Your kind of at the end of the drawing season, but you might get enough drawn to over winter with ample amounts of 1:1 or slightly thinner syrup.
You may do better to equalize the other hives and steal a frame or two if drawn from them if they can afford it to make up the difference.
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1:1. Also, what do you mean by "equalize the other hives"?
Taking some from a stronger hive(s) to give to the weaker hive.
A honey frame from this one, a pollen frame from that one, and a brood frame from this one and do on.
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Wintering over in nucs is an option if you have that equipment. If you can get 10-15 frames in a double or tripple stack nuc. I do medium nucs as well as deep.
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I would go with 1:2 syrup. all bees, can build comb, but the most proficient are the bees around 12 days old. so move frames to make them do what you wish. Sorry something happened when trying to post.
I can not speak for your area. According to a major beekeeper in the Georgia, NorthCarolina area: His bees will draw comb even after a flow if feed: 'Modified for clarity': 1 part sugar to 1.5 parts water in a two gallon bucket feeder. This will stimulate them until about the middle of or just past the middle of September. After that you can not get them to draw comb under any circumstances.
"By the time we get into late September they won't draw foundation no matter what you do" "If Syrup goes in fast and or thick its not very stimulating. But if it goes in slowly and its thin, it has a stimulative effect." "We can control that rate by how many holes we put into these plugs." (feeder cap). Bob Binnie
What does the brood look like, how about the queen? Asking as no mention it here, yet. FYI, a hive that is queenless or in midst of requeening itself, virgin queen, will not draw much comb. It seems like all progress goes on hold and there is alot of loitering around until the queen is active in the nest.
A swarm is typically an old queen. Once the swarm has found a new home and gets established they will supercede the old queen. When the new queen is active and they are happy with her, then they off the old queen.
The timing of your swarm and your observations suggest to me that is a possibility for the pause in comb progress.
For your considerations.
Hope that helps!
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 20, 2021, 03:21:23 AM
What does the brood look like, how about the queen? Asking as no mention it here, yet. FYI, a hive that is queen less or in midst of requesting itself, virgin queen, will not draw comb. It seems all progress goes on hold and there is alot of loitering around until the queen is active in the nest.
A swarm is typically an old queen. Once the swarm has found a new home and gets established they will supercede the old queen. When the new queen is active and they are happy with her, then they off the old queen.
The timing of your swarm and your observations suggest to me that is a possibility for the pause in comb progress.
For your considerations.
Hope that helps!
I agree Mr HoneyPump and good point, if there is no queen. June 21 is a late swarm for sure in many locations. On the other hand, if there is a capable queen and no flow in Alklar20s' location, then the feeding would come into play as long as Alklar20s' season permits as much. I would like to hear you opinion.
Adding since you have been feeding since July 3 and if you have plenty of bees, and a laying queen, and pollen, they should be building up, Mr Honeypump has most likely hit the nail on the head. :grin:
Quote
1.5 parts sugar water? Do you mean 1:5 sugar water, or 1.5 parts sugar to 1 part water, or something else perhaps?
One part sugar. One and one half part water.
Syrup is mixed by Mass ratio (by weight), with the larger number being the sugar.
.. 1.5 to 1 syrup means
1.5 Kg sugar to 1 Kg water
OR
4 lb sugar to 2.6 lb water
.. 2 to 1 syrup means
2 Kg sugar to 1 Kg water
OR
4 lb sugar to 2 lb water
Hope that helps!
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 20, 2021, 11:52:55 AM
Syrup is mixed by Mass ratio (by weight), with the larger number being the sugar. ...
I learn something new every day here. I've been mixing sugar-water by volume ... 4 gallons water to 7 or 8 gallons of sugar ...
Thanks HP.
Hi CB
I am with your old formula, i have always been using vol:vol ratio for mixing syrup.
A vol:vol formula may produce a slightly stronger syrup but i don't think the difference would be significant, probably about !5% stronger.
We use 6kg of sugar to make 10 liters of syrup.
The variation in the moisture content of nectar would probably be same.
According to Mr Binnie in the same video, volume of water and sugar are close in weight, weighing about the same. So it really doesn't matter if you weight it or measure it. But the ratio does have an effect, depending on the desired results and time of year. . Thanks Mr HoneyPump.
In terms of whether the mix is right for the bees or not, yeah it does not matter that much when mixing fairly light. Ultimately the bees will fix it to what they want it to be.
The density of granulated sugar is roughly 1.6 times more than water. If you mix by volume: mixing equal volumes of sugar and water together is going to be a 1.6 to 1 syrup, not a 1 to 1 syrup. Mix any way you wish and what works for you and your bees. However, being in a technical profession, being clear on the method of measurement and the units when stating a number does matter, a-lot, .. at least to me it does. When we tell each other 2:1 or 1:1 or 1.5:1 syrup , it does make a huge difference in the thickness of the syrup produced whether that spec is by mass or by volume.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 21, 2021, 09:53:53 PM
The density of granulated sugar is roughly 1.6 times more than water. So if you mix by volume: mixing equal volumes of sugar and water together your syrup is going to be: 1.6 to 1
Mix the any way you wish and what works for you. However, being in a technical profession, being correct on the method of measurement and the units and stating a number does matter, .. at least to me it does.
I just did an experiment with an 8 oz empty jar. First I zeroed the weight of the jar, removed from the scale, filled with sugar weight 7.4 oz
I then emptied the same jar checked to make sure 0 weight still showed for accuracy and experiments sake, all good. Filled the same jar to the same level with tap water. weight 7.9 oz
If I were mixing thousands of gallons of both sugar and water together this may be a financial concern to me with such a high volume. As a hobbyist mixing 5 gallons at a time with half and half volume sugar/water feed for my few hives, should I be concerned with such a small difference? Maybe I should be but Im not. lol.
Quote
When we tell each other 2:1 or 1:1 or 1.5:1 syrup , it does make a huge difference in the thickness of the syrup produced whether that spec is by mass or by volume.
Yes I agree. I am the one who used the 1.5 sugar water statement in reply number 9. I went back and edited my reply to comply with my meaning to be accurate. When ask, I attempted to clarify my meaning in reply 15 by saying 1 part sugar to 1.5 parts water. or 1:1.5
What is a `part` ?
In the south a "PART" used in this manner referrers to any like unit of measure, ie: pound , Kilo , pint etc.
Try this HP
One Part This, One Part That
Ask the Test Kitchen
I?m confused when recipes call for 1 part of an ingredient like oil and 2 parts of another ingredient like sugar. Does one part mean 1 ounce? ?R.C., Miami, FloridaParts refer to the measurement?it could be cups, tablespoons, ounces or any other type of measurement you choose.
Let?s say a salad dressing recipe calls for 2 parts oil and 1 part vinegar. The ratio of those two ingredients is 2 to 1. That means that the amount of oil will be double the amount of vinegar. So if you want enough salad dressing to feed your family, you might choose to make 1-1/2 cups, or 1 cup of oil to 1/2 cup vinegar. If you would like a small amount of dressing, say 3 ounces, you would use 2 tablespoons oil and 1 tablespoon vinegar. Both examples have the same ratio of 2 to 1.
Quote from: Alklar20 on July 23, 2021, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 21, 2021, 07:50:52 PM
According to Mr Binnie in the same video, volume of water and sugar are close in weight, weighing about the same. So it really doesn't matter if you weight it or measure it. But the ratio does have an effect, depending on the desired results and time of year. . Thanks Mr HoneyPump.
Can you send me a link to this video?
I am sending a PM to you give me a minute.
Quote from: Alklar20 on July 23, 2021, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 21, 2021, 07:50:52 PM
According to Mr Binnie in the same video, volume of water and sugar are close in weight, weighing about the same. So it really doesn't matter if you weight it or measure it. But the ratio does have an effect, depending on the desired results and time of year. . Thanks Mr HoneyPump.
Can you send me a link to this video?
Alklar20 It wasn't easy, but I found it.
For the information that I described, check out the following. I hope this helps.
Weight vs volume 20:47
"Oddly enough a quart of sugar weighs close to the same as a quart of water".
Bob BinnieYou can add my name to that after my experiment described in above reply 21... 😊
For stimulating comb; start at 25:48
"Approx. 1 part sugar to 1.5 parts water" 26.07
Bob Binniehttps://youtu.be/-NKsGNcx5I0
One of the first beekeeper quotes I heard. "A pints a pound the world around" .
""The density of granulated sugar is roughly 1.6 times more than water. So if you mix by volume: mixing equal volumes of sugar and water together your syrup is going to be: 1.6 to 1
Mix the any way you wish and what works for you. However, being in a technical profession, being correct on the method of measurement and the units and stating a number does matter, .. at least to me it does.""
I have to disagree with this. I had an argument with the state bee inspector about this, so I got two half gallon jars and added a quart of sugar to each. Then I filled one with water and added a quart of water to the other. There was less than 2 ounces difference in the two totals.
As Rast said, "a pint is a pound, the world around."
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 21, 2021, 07:50:52 PM
According to Mr Binnie in the same video, volume of water and sugar are close in weight, weighing about the same. So it really doesn't matter if you weight it or measure it. But the ratio does have an effect, depending on the desired results and time of year. . Thanks Mr HoneyPump.
I think they may be a southern beekeeper thing. I never saw a huge difference between feeding 2:1/1:1 in the spring. When I do feed its always 2:1, bees are after the carbs and can cap and process it faster as 2:1. So I found in my area they build comb and brood up a little faster with 2:1. Compared to Binney I have a short season here in the NE. The only advantage to 1:1 for me is its quicker to mix if I'm in a hurry.
One thing I did forget to mention is my minis for mating build up MUCH faster on 2:1.
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/sugar-syrup-ratios/
Mixing substances with different states (solid/liquid/gas) and differing densities (SG) by volume ratio does not give the same result as mixing by mass ratio. It is a base principle of concentration of solutions, a chemistry thing. If/when we say 2:1 or 1:1 or whatever, unless we say how we are mixing it - the ratio being given is meaningless.
(.. I now give up, and bow out ..)
As posted above, wrt sugar syrup find the mix method that works for you. Under good conditions, the bees will fix the mix anyways. They are experts at adjusting to what they actually need. After all, that is how they make honey from large variations in any sugar water coming in -- aka nectar.
Isn't it amazing how different sources get different answers when measuring a cup of sugar and water? For example, My findings were 7.4 oz for sugar and 7.9 for water. 'lighter than water by volume'.
Honeybee Suite as reported By Member 7.05 oz sugar and 8.3 for water.
Yet when googled, density of sugar ,granulated in 285 units and reference sugar
(7.1 oz/US cup) and water 1 cup = 8 f oz from How much does water weigh?-Bowl of Plenty.
It was not my intention to get into a sugar vs water mixing by volume debate. Or go into such deep detail of each. I was and am simply attempting to answer the OP question of building comb. I did remember the well put together video by Mr Binnin and responded from what I had learned there. However when it was posted and brought to my attention,"The density of granulated sugar is roughly 1.6 times more than water." I had to make sure I wasn't messing up or leading others in a bad way by quoting Mr Binnies words. So I checked for myself on our kitchen scales. Thats it in a nutshell. lol.. 😊
I hope that helps clear the air.....
.
Ben; My wife tells me I can't get an accurate volume measure of sugar unless I sift it. I know this must be true because she hasn't been wrong once in the last 58 years.
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 24, 2021, 02:15:09 PM
Yet when googled, density of sugar ,granulated in 285 units and reference sugar
Is that the density of cane, beet, or non GMO beet sugar? :cheesy:
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 24, 2021, 03:43:54 PM
Ben; My wife tells me I can't get an accurate volume measure of sugar unless I sift it. I know this must be true because she hasn't been wrong once in the last 58 years.
AR that makes perfect sense. I suppose different sugar manufacturers produce sugar granules in size as created by the machinery producing these granules? Each granule resting against other granules multiplied until sack is full, will have to have a minute amount of space between each granule? This would or should, make a difference in weight per volume from company to company, depending on their machinery in manufacturing though (slight)? If so that would account for the different weights of sugar, n different test in an '8 oz container' or 'cup'?
Quote from: beesnweeds on July 24, 2021, 04:19:55 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 24, 2021, 02:15:09 PM
Yet when googled, density of sugar ,granulated in 285 units and reference sugar
Is that the density of cane, beet, or non GMO beet sugar? :cheesy:
:cheesy: I love it beesnweeds :grin: :wink: Thanks for the smile I still have from your post! :grin: :grin:
Not sure if this will work
Sugars lb/ft3 kg/m3
Sucrose crystal 99.0 1586.2
Amorphous sucrose 94.1 1507.7
Bulk white sugar 54.9 880
Bagged white sugar 43.7 700
Raw sugar (96? Pol) in a pile56.2 900
Bagged raw sugar 42.4 680
So what comes of that is that a sugar crystal has a density of 1.6 but once granulated is at 0.88.
Hope this helps
When I make sugar water, I just pour a bunch in a 2 liter soft drink bottle, fill with hot tap water and give it a shake. Let it sit(usually overnight). If there is sugar still not dissolved in the bottom the I will add a little more water, if not we are good to go.
I use 5 gallon buckets and a drill with a mixing paddle for 5 gallon buckets of paint. Knowing that 5 pounds of sugar + 5 pints of water makes 1 gallon of syrup, I can figure out how much sugar/water I must mix to make the number of gallons I intend to feed. I work with 10 pound sacks of sugar because that is the size that is most economical to buy locally.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 24, 2021, 03:43:54 PM
Ben; My wife tells me I can't get an accurate volume measure of sugar unless I sift it. I know this must be true because she hasn't been wrong once in the last 58 years.
That's good enough recommendation for me Mr AR! My special thanks to Mrs AR... :grin:
Well... to be more accurate I should have said that I have not been able to convince her that she was wrong.
Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 25, 2021, 05:27:24 PM
Well... to be more accurate I should have said that I have not been able to convince her that she was wrong.
:wink: