Hi there.
I have a Warre top bar hive in my backyard. I started with a nuc 63 days ago. Everything was going great but now I think its being robbed.
Recently, I noticed some fighting at my entrance on the landing board. One or two bees would tackle another, they'd either intertwine, drag each other to the edge and fall off onto the ground in front of the hive -OR- one would take off flying with the other hanging on like a little cargo helicopter. Every once in a while I would see a bee walk out with a small piece of cap and throw it-I only noticed this 2 times, really.
When I noticed this activity, I rolled some window screen and reduced the entrance to maybe 20mm. The activity really didn't seem to stop. I did notice a small cluster of dead drones on the ground in front as well as a few dead workers. Maybe 8 drones and 10 workers in total that I could easily see. This doesn't appear to be SOOOO much activity that its constant, but I think that my hive is being robbed and its tough to tell how much robbing is happening. There isn't much debris at the entrance like you would expect during serious robbing. My two inspection windows don't show any torn up comb, but I do feel they have slowed their comb draw down, some.
Nonetheless, I wrapped my hive for a day with a wet sheet that draped to the ground. I removed it midday the next day and all seemed normal for a day or so. I removed the reducer 2 days later.
Now I have these little scuffles happening again. I ordered a robber screen that I think won't work but I'll have to try and make fit. There aren't very many items to accommodate other hive configurations besides the Langstroth.
I've even tried to make my own robber screen in the meantime while I wait for the commercial version to show up. I put it on last night but took it off this morning when I noticed a pileup of returning bees with pollen in their sacs standing around confused.
What do you all think I should do? Should I let them go and fight off the robbers on their own? It doesn't seem like they're being overwhelmed-I don't know. This is my first and only hive. I have read a ton of information and have a mentor who's kept bees forever. He said that it doesn't look like full-blown robbing to him and that he things I just need to reduce the opening. Even with the opening reduced, the activity was about the same.
Thoughts?
I'll attach some pictures of my hive. One you can see the dead bees below-that was after I removed the sheet. I may have hurt them putting it on. Another of my robber screen. The top has two 14mm holes for egress. The screen up front acts like a goalie net to slow and annoy what I think are robbers.
:sad:
They're supposed to be Italian but, to me, they don't look like my friend's Italian bees as much. He has a ton of hives. These seem a little smaller and have some thicker banding. Probably a hybrid? I PAYED for Italians, though. IDK. The person I bought the nuc from kind of screwed me over. The frames all looked old and gross. There were also a bunch of beetle larva wriggling in the bottom of the nuc box when I was going to transfer them to my hive. That's the main reason why I didn't try and modify the frames to fit my Warre,
Imgur link
https://imgur.com/a/64oPXSK
Keep in mind that bees, just like people, generate trash that needs to be taken out of the house. Seeing bees removing other dead bees and bits of debris is completely normal, as is seeing a moderate pile of that junk outside in front of the landing board. If you aren't seeing regular fighting, lots of bees checking out cracks between boxes or other ways to enter the hive, ragged torn open comb, or piles of dead bees, I don't think you are having a serious problem. If you are concerned about robbing, reducing the entrance is always a great course of action, but be aware that the bees may take a few hours to learn the how to use the new entrance efficiently. As long as the bees are able to navigate the robber screen that you rigged, I'd leave it on or otherwise reduce the entrance so they can defend the entrance more easily. But from what I'm hearing, I think that will take care of it.
That's nice looking hive and stand arrangement you've got. It's difficult to tell by the photos if there's robbing going on. The amount of dead on the ground appears to be a normal amount for the undertakers to dispose of and not excessive.
I would agree with your mentor friend...if you're really suspicious of robbing, I would suggest reducing the entrance again down to 1". This may create a traffic jam for your own bees but will give them the best opportunity to fend off any potential robbers. If your weather gets hot and you notice lots of bearding, consider improving the ventilation while the reducer is on. Best of luck~
First thing I thought is - why is that baby nurse bee on the outside? If you had SHB larvae when they went into the hive, are there enough bees to pull eggs and fend off an infestation? 63 days isn't long to fill that HUGE hive with a nuc. Reduce space! Pack those girls in because hive size will be diminish after the solstice anyway.
Dying bees: possiby you may have older foragers who die usually die in the field staying at home to defend the space - ergo, more dead bees.
Listen to the sound. High pictched, or low thrum? Mob robbing sounds "tense and whiney." It smells hot like fizzy bees. Bees are darting fast. Robber bees sway back and forth and try to break in the gaps. Stealth robbing is not so evident.
Yes, hardware mesh is makes a simple robbing screen. But #1 is to find out what's happening inside, and keep the space tight to the amount of bees you have now. Although they do need a free frame or two to expand if you are feeding, keep an eye on it. If you see 3 or 4 bees walking on empty frames or foundation, they need to be working with the clan, not straggling and struggling to patrol.
Which one is the nurse bee? How can you tell?
Most often, when I see a hive being robbed, there are robber bees all over the hive: top, sides, back as the robbers are looking for a back door. There should be bees attached to the side of the hive being robbed. Also, when a hive is being robbed: I see a cloud of robber bees in the air in the front of the entrance looking for a safe landing opportunity. I dont see these normal issues in the pics.
1 or 2 bees wrestling is not a major concern. Real robbing involves hundreds, thousands of bees and a flurry of activity. Robbers can be spotted leaving the hive with large abdomens full of stolen nectar or honey.
A bee with full abdomen is seen by the abdomen elongated and sorta dragging the ground.
I took a couple videos. Thoughts?
https://youtu.be/Nml2yXjBKTE
https://youtu.be/izU4RAy5COo
Quote from: JurassicApiary on August 06, 2021, 01:37:13 PM
That's nice looking hive and stand arrangement you've got. It's difficult to tell by the photos if there's robbing going on. The amount of dead on the ground appears to be a normal amount for the undertakers to dispose of and not excessive.
I would agree with your mentor friend...if you're really suspicious of robbing, I would suggest reducing the entrance again down to 1". This may create a traffic jam for your own bees but will give them the best opportunity to fend off any potential robbers. If your weather gets hot and you notice lots of bearding, consider improving the ventilation while the reducer is on. Best of luck~
Thanks! Here's a full picture of it.
Warre Hive https://imgur.com/a/waU2ken
Inside Inspection Window https://imgur.com/a/CqXpyDw
Quote from: FloridaGardener on August 06, 2021, 02:21:55 PM
63 days isn't long to fill that HUGE hive with a nuc. Reduce space! Pack those girls in because hive size will be diminish after the solstice anyway.
I missed that this hive is only 63 days old, and I agree with FG. I know Warre boxes are smaller than langstroths, but this is still probably too much space, and that can contribute to robbing issues as well, as there aren't enough bees to patrol for intruders.
Quote from: FloridaGardener on August 06, 2021, 02:21:55 PM
First thing I thought is - why is that baby nurse bee on the outside?
Quote from: pegasusblack on August 06, 2021, 04:00:50 PM
Which one is the nurse bee? How can you tell?
I don't specifically see a young bee on that landing board. Which one is it, FG? Bees that have just eclosed (hatched) out of their capped cells will be lighter in color and very fluffy while they wait for their cuticle to harden fully. Bees' first job as an adult is nurse bee, but after they harden they will look just like the other workers, except perhaps less ragged than the foragers since they haven't been exposed to the rigors of field work. I'm not sure exactly how long it takes for them to harden fully, but I'd imagine it's less than one day. Here's a picture of a teneral bee, a bee that has just emerged and is still soft.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Quote from: pegasusblack on August 06, 2021, 05:20:11 PM
I took a couple videos. Thoughts?
I see nothing abnormal about that hive entrance. Just bees coming and going and a few fanning. Everyone is acting like they actually live here, not like they are either sneaking or bullying their way in.
The bees tussling in your video could be workers removing/rejecting sick or diseased bees, its not robbing. I would take a mite count. Otherwise the colony looks quite normal. Very nice hive.
That is a beautiful hive and beautiful hive stand. Agree that the entrance looks to be normal activity. Also, the bees appear to be friendly, not attacking the camera lens, bees paying no attention to their keeper. I adore bees that are well behaved, friendly bees that is.
Very common for a hive that is being robbed to be defensive towards the beekeeper. In other words, if you approach close to a robbed hive, very common to have bees in your face trying to sting the britches off ya.
Conclusion: friendly bees, a beautiful hive, well kept grass, nice stand, a delight to my eyes to view. Thanks for posting the pics and the video.
Don't neglect varroa mite, the mites are in your hive: 100% probability of mites. Off subject so I will keep this warning short.
Health to your beautiful honeybees.
Quote from: The15thMember on August 06, 2021, 05:31:33 PM
I don't specifically see a young bee on that landing board. Which one is it, FG?
light & fuzzy one
could be self-removal
could just be camera angle
Added video looks good at hive entrance.
Here is a longer video I took of my entrance real close and very very high def.
https://youtu.be/MVcM1pU1zig
Thanks for all the positive comments about my hive! I try hard.
If you are worried about robbing reduce the entrance to 1 or 2 bee spaces. That way the bees will be able to defend the hive. Or alternatively put on a robbing screen.
My commercial robbing screen should arrive tomorrow. I hope I can modify it to work.
My hive is at 4 boxes now because they filled 2 in the very first month. I could barely pick them up at my first inspection. I added a third and I saw that they were most of the way drawn with that one. The 4th was only added after I saw them bearding quite a lot-even at night. We had a couple weeks of nearly record breaking heat. I thought at the very least the last box could act as a heat brake between the lower chambers and the quilt box below the vented roof.
If you think I should remove that, I will. As soon as I get a chance. There are a handful of workers that hang out in that top box. I agree that they should definitely get back to being productive.
They're all over the box below it, though. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210807/79a8970f1cbcc3251c73cb342bf4b4be.jpg)
Here is the hive when I first started. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210807/c3160fe17e89855583ca91d39b22b796.jpg)
How big was the nuc that you started with?
I think your bees have too much room, bees are always better on the congested side rather than all the space yours have, Take some boxes off. Let them fill one box at a time.
Entrance activity looks normal to me and your bees are Italian looking. Yellow bees.
Remember there is always variation within strains, does every Labrador look exactly like the next one.
Quote from: pegasusblack on August 07, 2021, 12:54:51 AM
My commercial robbing screen should arrive tomorrow. I hope I can modify it to work.
My hive is at 4 boxes now because they filled 2 in the very first month. I could barely pick them up at my first inspection. I added a third and I saw that they were most of the way drawn with that one. The 4th was only added after I saw them bearding quite a lot-even at night. We had a couple weeks of nearly record breaking heat. I thought at the very least the last box could act as a heat brake between the lower chambers and the quilt box below the vented roof.
If you think I should remove that, I will. As soon as I get a chance. There are a handful of workers that hang out in that top box. I agree that they should definitely get back to being productive.
They're all over the box below it, though. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210807/79a8970f1cbcc3251c73cb342bf4b4be.jpg)
Is there a flow on in your area at this time? If there is, then you could leave it on for them to work if they have the 3rd box fully drawn already. If there is not a flow on then I agree with OldBeavo, I think that top box is unnecessary. With the Warre's quilt box setup for ventilation, they should be able to manage the heat. Fanning and bearding in hot temperatures is normal, and while it's good to help them out with temperature control where you can, I think this is just too much room for them to utilize effectively, especially if they aren't inclined to draw it out.
Mr. Peagus; Member and Beavo presented good advice: remove top box, to much space.
This time of year, bees are reluctant to draw out frames unless there is a flow in your area.
If there are 3 boxes full of bees, and have added a fourth empty and undrawn to give them space and work .. to have them draw it fast to enable to use it, place the new box in position 2, as the second. If there is a flow, they will draw the gap space very quickly and use it. If there is little to no flow they will only draw a few ladder combs to get into the upper boxes.
I have no comments to offer regarding the robbing question. Only that if there is robbing going on then by deduction there is little to no flow. And with that there is no point in adding undrawn space, no matter how much bearding there is. Will add that bees do not rob each other when there is forage available, and robbing is near impossible for them to do to a hive that is bearding.
Hope that helps.
Ok thanks for the advice! I've removed the top box this morning. So now I have just three on and my hive size is reduced. Everything looks normal inside-nothing is chewed and no serious debris anywhere. They began drawing comb in my third box but I can tell that they slowed in building it out since it doesn't look like it's moved along much since the last time I looked. The flow is probably low like you've all been saying.
I watched them for 20 minutes and didn't see any fighting. When I opened the hive to take a look between the boxes, they were very very well mannered. I'm very gentle and move slowly and deliberately. They didn't even care I was there and I think I can probably manage doing it without the thick gloves on.
My screen came today but I'm going to hold off on figuring out how to fit it. Not sure if I need it anymore.
If I was being robbed, I think they have it all under control for now.
When I got my nuc, the guy told me there were 6lbs of bees and a laying queen. I not sure if that's a lot but I didn't really lose very many when placing them in my hive.
This was the nuc I got. I set them up for a day and fed them a little before transferring them to my hive. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210807/14f89d35eaff9435c3ecb1c21804a666.jpg)
Tons of activity this afternoon. I think it could be orientation flights, maybe? I don't see any coming in with pollen.
What do you think? They should load in high def.
https://youtu.be/ruWCb38BblM
https://youtu.be/0PtzRXqCjPk
Quote from: pegasusblack on August 07, 2021, 04:16:19 PM
Ok thanks for the advice! I've removed the top box this morning. So now I have just three on and my hive size is reduced. Everything looks normal inside-nothing is chewed and no serious debris anywhere. They began drawing comb in my third box but I can tell that they slowed in building it out since it doesn't look like it's moved along much since the last time I looked. The flow is probably low like you've all been saying.
I watched them for 20 minutes and didn't see any fighting. When I opened the hive to take a look between the boxes, they were very very well mannered. I'm very gentle and move slowly and deliberately. They didn't even care I was there and I think I can probably manage doing it without the thick gloves on.
My screen came today but I'm going to hold off on figuring out how to fit it. Not sure if I need it anymore.
If I was being robbed, I think they have it all under control for now.
When I got my nuc, the guy told me there were 6lbs of bees and a laying queen. I not sure if that's a lot but I didn't really lose very many when placing them in my hive.
Sounds great! I think you made the right choice removing that box.
Quote from: pegasusblack on August 07, 2021, 06:25:42 PM
Tons of activity this afternoon. I think it could be orientation flights, maybe? I don't see any coming in with pollen.
What do you think? They should load in high def.
That looks like orientation to me. Everybody flying casually in lazy circles or facing the hive. No one checking out cracks or tentatively testing the guard bees on the landing board.
6lb of bees and a queen is a package, not a nuc. IMO
To me a nuc has bees , brood and a queens, the issue with a Warre hive is that Langstroth frames don't fit.
So it is difficult to buy a nuc of bees for a Warre hive.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on August 11, 2021, 07:05:54 AM
6lb of bees and a queen is a package, not a nuc. IMO
To me a nuc has bees , brood and a queens, the issue with a Warre hive is that Langstroth frames don't fit.
So it is difficult to buy a nuc of bees for a Warre hive.
Idk. It's just what the guy told me. There were 5 frames in the nuc box. You're right. They won't fit.
If I could do it over again I wouldn't bother ordering my bees through this person. I only had a small 6 inch by 6 inch section of capped brood and maybe 2 frames total had a 3 inch bar of capped honey. They were pretty barren. Certainly not the headstart I thought I was buying into.
My FIL set up the purchase. He wasn't expecting a nuc. When we told the guy we weren't sure how we'd get these into our Warre hive he acted like he had no idea what we were talking about. All in all, 3 out of 10 stars.
We already drove over an hour to get them. We really had no choice I guess.
This is what it was. I had already brushed the bees off I to my hive. You can see a frame that I tried to cut down to fit like my bars. There was hardly anything on the frames anyways. Waste of time. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210812/e5d71d23d085d4b4a952305d0f0e7b06.jpg)
Quote from: pegasusblack on August 11, 2021, 11:03:08 PM
This is what it was. I had already brushed the bees off I to my hive. You can see a frame that I tried to cut down to fit like my bars. There was hardly anything on the frames anyways. Waste of time. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210812/e5d71d23d085d4b4a952305d0f0e7b06.jpg)
Yeah, that comb does look pretty old, which is kind of crappy. Did you notice any open brood on the frames? It can sometimes be difficult for newbees to see eggs and young larvae on dark comb, so I'm just wondering if perhaps the comb wasn't as empty as you thought.
.. OR the supplier knew the frames would not fit the Warre hive. So instead of providing valuable on frame resources that would just be wasted, he transferred that value into extra bees and supplied a nuc packed out with bees on basic throw away comb. 6lbs of bees is ALOT of bees. Waaay more than you would get in a standard package or nuc.
9 stars out of 10 to the guy for knowing what was actually needed and for adjusting the supplied product to suit the need and minimize wasted value.
AND you got a $15 plastic work box which is handy for stealing honey from the bees, or to do an emergency pre-swarm queen removal "shook swarm."
Glue a wood cleat in there, so the ears of your frame will hang on the other side. - Ta-da!
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on August 12, 2021, 02:28:29 AM
.. OR the supplier knew the frames would not fit the Warre hive. So instead of providing valuable on frame resources that would just be wasted, he transferred that value into extra bees and supplied a nuc packed out with bees on basic throw away comb. 6lbs of bees is ALOT of bees. Waaay more than you would get in a standard package or nuc.
9 stars out of 10 to the guy for knowing what was actually needed and for adjusting the supplied product to suit the need and minimize wasted value.
Guy didn't know we had a Warre until we showed up. FIL didn't know he ordered a nuc, only that it was going to be 6lb of bees. Guy literally told us we're out of luck as he put my money into his pocket. Guy didn't give a bleep about us.
I paid 230 for it. And the nuc was used with a crack in the corner. Dated last year with a sharpie and crossed off with a 2021 date. He didn't do me any favors