I collected a swarm on May 15th this year. It was smaller in size, around 2 lbs of bees. Found the queen, big and beautiful. Marked her and hived them in a single deep 8 frame langstroth. Fed them some 1:1 here and there as they got started drawing wax and getting established. As they grew, I noticed these bees would washboard a LOT. Other hives would have foragers coming and going, these were just washboarding continuously with only a few foragers here and there. They are the last hive to get going in the morning, and the first hive to close up shop (virtually zero activity at the entrance in the evening.) I have always thought they were just a little lazier than the others, or slower growing. As of now they have grown to occupy about 7 frames in a 10 frame langstroth. With what I consider good numbers of been covering 11 or 12 of the 14 individual sides of those 7 frames. There are regularly eggs, capped brood, decent honey stores on top, decent pollen etc (plus I have added a frame of capped brood and honey stores to help them, sometime mid July) They just seem really slow and / or lazy and I'm not sure why. I have not performed a mite check yet. There are never very many dead bees inside or on the ground outside the hive, there doesn't appear to be any brood issues or abnormalities. Should I get a mated queen and pinch off the current one so I can introduce some different genetics? Or just let them go and see if they overwinter? I'm not sure how I should approach the situation. Cheers
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As of now they have grown to occupy about 7 frames in a 10 frame langstroth. With what I consider good numbers of been covering 11 or 12 of the 14 individual sides of those 7 frames. There are regularly eggs, capped brood, decent honey stores on top, decent pollen etc (plus I have added a frame of capped brood and honey stores to help them, sometime mid July) They just seem really slow and / or lazy and I'm not sure why. I have not performed a mite check yet.
I say this based on the above taken from your OP.. We do know that bees will reproduce only at a rate that they can tend to brood. They will not raise more brood at a time than they can attend. Since the swarm was small and in the middle of May, perhaps they got off to a slow start considering? (Most swarms I catch are in late March and April in my area). Maybe they will snowball and catch up with adequate resources. A dearth is no help. Usually August in my area is a time of dearth with little natural resources coming in. Hopefully they are healthy. With a healthy hive and a good queen, resources my now be your need? A Mite check would not be a bad idea....
Swarm is the old queen, usually. That is how they are made. If the hive did not requeen itself after getting established on the hive then it likely still has the old queen. As queens age they slow in their movements and their egg laying. Result is a nice healthy colony that does not keep pace in size of population of nearby comparable hives. The hive is steady but does not amount to much.
Based on your observations, yes. Definitely requeen. But not so much about hive genetic productivity as because of the need to invigorate the hive with a new young prolific queen.
If you do not requeen yourself you may encounter a late natural supercedure attempt that can fail. Or they take the old queen onto winter and do not make it.
You can take the fate of the hive into control, you requeen. Or leave to chance and out of control by just waiting for them to fail or succeed.
Another possibility to consider. A slow nonproductive hive could be infected with nosema. Nosema cerenae is dominant strain nowadays. It can be present year round. Nosema causes nonproductive behaviour and loitering. Nosema infected bees do not want to work much as are from suffering of belly-aches and lethargy from the drain of energy the parasite causes in competing for food in their gut.
Hope that helps!
Mr HoneyPump. I have read up on washboarding and so far have found no solid answer for its purpose though plenty of theories are in circulation. Your thoughts on nosema are very interesting and I feel secure and accurate, coming from you.
Quoting you: " Nosema causes nonproductive behaviour and loitering. Nosema infected bees do not want to work much as are from suffering of belly-aches and lethargy from the drain of energy the parasite causes in competing for food in their gut."
I have a question, could this pain they experience from nosema possibly cause, or be THE cause of washboarding?
Phillip
Thanks for the replies. Based on my observations over the past few months, my gut feeling has been that I need to requeen, and I feel like I should do it soon. I have been debating whether I should do that for the past month, but to be completely honest I have been putting it off because I am going to have a hard time pinching that beautiful queen..... :sad:
Dont pinch her yet! If you only have one hive, put her with 2 frames in a nuc box 2 miles away. If your new queen(s) don't get mated & get busy, then you have a fallback plan.
Quote from: FloridaGardener on August 12, 2021, 02:10:10 PM
Dont pinch her yet!
I agree, don't pinch her yet. Not even all bought mated queens are 100 percent accepted.
Adding: Some of my splits this season seemed stymied. But after adding one part sugar to two parts water by volume feed on top, in a quart jar feeder, they were off and going.
Am not aware of anyone who knows (with substantiated backup) why bees washboard on front of a hive. None of the scholarly PhD lever experts I have asked.
IMHO washboarding is loitering. The fix for their lazy bee butts is to take ALL of their honey away and give them empty stickies to get onto fixing and refilling. Whenever I have observed washboarding, the hive was packed out and the bees had nothing else to do but go dancing.
Thanks Mr HP. Your opinion sounds better than many and as good as any.. :grin:
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on August 12, 2021, 05:48:02 PM
Am not aware of anyone who knows (with substantiated backup) why bees washboard on front of a hive. None of the scholarly PhD lever experts I have asked.
IMHO washboarding is loitering. The fix for their lazy bee butts is to take ALL of their honey away and give them empty stickies to get onto fixing and refilling. Whenever I have observed washboarding, the hive was packed out and the bees had nothing else to do but go dancing.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on August 12, 2021, 05:48:02 PMIMHO washboarding is loitering. The fix for their lazy bee butts is to take ALL of their honey away and give them empty stickies to get onto fixing and refilling. Whenever I have observed washboarding, the hive was packed out and the bees had nothing else to do but go dancing.
Interesting. Out of all 6 hives this one is the only one where I see washboarding regularly. Funny enough, they do not have a lot of food at all. Infact I gave them a frame of capped brood and honey partly for that reason.
I?m not going to pinch her until I have the replacement queen laying, but even then... gonna be tough to do the deed
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I?m not going to pinch her until I have the replacement queen laying, but even then... gonna be tough to do the deed
😊. (in my opinion) As mentioned in reply 1, I still absolutely recommend a mite check.
From the start, 2lb of bees in a 8 frame, there is alot of space to keep warm.
You fed them some 1:1 but for how long and how much?
Was there nectar and pollen available for them to forage?
A queen will only lay according to inputs of the hive.
Graduating them to a 10 frame may not have been a good move, to much room again if they have only occupied 7 frames. Bees run better slightly congested rather than plenty of room.
If they are only 7 frames out them back in their 8 frame box. Coming up to Autumn/ winter let them pack it out.
Make a decision regarding the queen as they come out of Spring, if they survive Winter.
Oldbeavo your thoughts are in agreement with mine. His location has a similar climate as mine, as stated in reply 1, August is a time of dearth. Not much supply of natural resources coming in so with a little help of added resources they should pack it out just fine before winter. He still has the goldenrod flow coming up as well. A good source of needed pollen for late season buildup..
Oldbeavo - thanks for the input
Ben - I agree I need to perform a mite check.
Whatever I decide to do, I will take notes and add updates.
What ever you decide I think you will be ok in this particular circumstance. Adding or not adding a queen would be a hard decision for me as well considering all the circumstances. Some good points made here with good coaching here from TheHoneyPump and Oldbeavo; pros, as well as FloridaGardeners' experienced input.
Wishing you the best in this..
Quote from: AustinB on August 13, 2021, 03:09:44 PM
Oldbeavo - thanks for the input
Ben - I agree I need to perform a mite check.
Whatever I decide to do, I will take notes and add updates.
AB
After thought, if the queen is a dud how did her bees get to the stage of swarming!
Management and lack of local inputs are what may be holding the hive back.
We overwintered some 5 frame nucs that were very full in Autumn, these have come through Winter with honey still in the lid. I put this down to being very full and maintaining temp very easy.
In comparison some Autumn made 4 frame nucs had to be given a frame of honey to get them through winter and only had half the bee numbers.