Hi Folks,
After the discussion a little bit earlier in relation to foundationless frames, I wondered has anyone tried using frames with the wire in place. I can see obvious advantages if the bees will draw comb around the wire. I know bees don?t like wire but what if the situation was changed slightly? About 6 years ago I purchased a large roll of really fine stainless wire that I have been using since that time. It is only half to 2/3rds the thickness of standard framing wire. It does also have disadvantages but the bees don?t seem to mind it as much as the thicker wire. I never have issues in relation to the queen laying on top of the wire. I?m not sure if that is due to the wire thickness or how the wire is embedded into the foundation. Would be interested in your thoughts as I have a couple of ideas that I would like to experiment with.
Cheers
Les
I know this is a side issue, but how many of you beeks have had comb collapse without a support such as wire?
I've had 3 summers so far with foundationless sans-support and no collapse yet, but I can imagine the mess if it ever does.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 07, 2022, 07:24:11 PM
Hi Folks,
After the discussion a little bit earlier in relation to foundationless frames, I wondered has anyone tried using frames with the wire in place. I can see obvious advantages if the bees will draw comb around the wire. I know bees don?t like wire but what if the situation was changed slightly? About 6 years ago I purchased a large roll of really fine stainless wire that I have been using since that time. It is only half to 2/3rds the thickness of standard framing wire. It does also have disadvantages but the bees don?t seem to mind it as much as the thicker wire. I never have issues in relation to the queen laying on top of the wire. I?m not sure if that is due to the wire thickness or how the wire is embedded into the foundation. Would be interested in your thoughts as I have a couple of ideas that I would like to experiment with.
Cheers
Les
All the local beekeepers in my area..
Who keep native bees Apis cerana... Have been using wooden frames with wires.. For at least 75 years.. The frame wire is bee standard. For wiring wooden frames. It comes from Dadant in the USA.. I don't believe it's possible to get foundation... For Apis cerana.. I do suggest... You do more reading on foundationless.. Like I heard years ago.... All answers local.. It does get hot in the Philippines.. Sometimes over a 100 Fahrenheit .. For a few weeks in a row. Of course this depends on where you at.. As compared to sea level.. Have a great day..
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :smile:
If the hive never moves, it doesnt matter.
If harvest by crush/strain, it doesnt matter.
For brood comb, doesnt really matter as it gets stronger with each brood cycle.
For hives that get moved around and/or combs that are handled and spin harvested, honey combs, the support is an absolute must. And depending on your operation wires are not enough.
That makes sense, HP.
That describes my hives.
What about the wire? Does thinner wire make a difference or detriment?
Hi Jim,
Thanks for you comments. Sounds like you get a bit warm there over the summer. Yep, there will be plenty of research and experimenting to follow.
As per usual HP your comments are logical. To back up Bobs question, will the bees draw comb over the wire? I have never tried (but will now as I want to find out for myself and see what issues arise) I took a photo of the wire that I?m using and compared it to the only other frame wire that I had in stock (it is also a thin gauge)
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Most of the wire that I?ve used in the past was a much heavier gauge than either of these two. I am guessing that it is about .2 to .25mm in diameter. The spool has no markings and I don?t have a set of verniers to check it. Just to put it into perspective, my crimper can not be used on this wire. You also mentioned that wires may not be enough if you spin out the honey. Could you expand on that please. I know that the new wax will be very soft and the initial extraction would have to be very slow (especially with a tangential extractor) but are there other considerations as well?
QuoteI know this is a side issue, but how many of you beeks have had comb collapse without a support such as wire?
I've had 3 summers so far with foundationless sans-support and no collapse yet, but I can imagine the mess if it ever does.
QuoteIf the hive never moves, it doesnt matter.
If harvest by crush/strain, it doesnt matter
Maybe in some locations it doesn't matter. But I have found in my location it can and has mattered. With a 'deep super' filled with brand new beautiful comb and no support along with the temperatures that my area affords at times, I had to learn the hard way. It is a sad thing to see brand new beautiful comb filled with nectar and honey collapsed on very hot days. Pulled lose from the top bar. I have experienced this and it's a sad experience... The reinforcement can make the difference in such circumstances.
Phillip
Robo uses wire in his foundation-less frames . He has posted of this along with pictures. He shows how he wires them himself..-
I have all mediums and my summer temps in the mountains are rarely extreme, but I've been totally foundationless from the beginning, no wires, no nothing, and I've never regretted it. I did come dangerously close to having a big chunk of newly drawn and filled soft honeycomb come off under its own weight when I tilted a frame on a hot day, but I thankfully noticed in time to carefully straighten it out and replace the frame without mishap.
I have tried every type of foundation including wire. Actually, I like to wire the frames & let the bees draw it out. I find it relaxing. I have also used 2 perpendicular bamboo dividers on some frames & the bees then draw out 3 sections, with 1 section nearly always being drone comb. If you practice IPM including some drone culling, cutting out 1/3 of a frame of drone brood & putting the frame back can help in keping mite numbers down.
Rick I have not used wires but intend too. When I first started using support, I used fishing line for support in the beginning. I learned this from David at Barnyard Bees. I used both the X pattern and the two across horizontal pattern. These worked good, BUT; too be more assured bees 'will' draw the wax through the line, completed drawn out frames need to be placed on each side, to be used as a guide so the bees will not be detoured and help avoid drawing around the line, but through the line. This 'closes' the foundation less frames 'in' so to speak. This goes for skewers also in my experience. I like skewers as proposed by Paus better than fishing line, (Two spaced out vertically on a frame as you described). Though fishing line works fine, skewers are much stronger support than fishing line in my opinion.
Phillip
Time to give it a go. Grabbed an empty frame that came out of the steam box a couple of months ago and decided to try my method of attaching a starter strip on all sides. Cut a strip of timber to fill the top bar grove and stapled it in place.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Used glad wrap and a timber block to act as my guide and applied wax on all internal edges of the frame.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
Hopefully this will be an extra guide for the bees to attach wax to the end and bottom bars. Placed it into a honey super of a hive (just a bit easier to check than burrowing down into the brood boxes). Will give regular reports over the next few weeks to show progress.
Cheers
Les
Wiring frames.. The original idea was to help... Combs from not sragging... In hot weather... Once the Combs sag in the brood nest... It is no longer good for Worker brood.
BEE HAPPY Jim134 :smile:
Quote from: Jim 134 on January 08, 2022, 12:52:27 AM
Wiring frames.. The original idea was to help... Combs from not sragging... In hot weather... Once the Combs sag in the brood nest... It is no longer good for Worker brood.
BEE HAPPY Jim134 :smile:
Agree, sagging is one thing and bad enough, detachment and failure is the pits also in hot weather locations lol. Good discussion here with different points of view. :smile: Thanks Jim.
Phillip
Sorry, I should have articulated my thoughts a bit clearer than I did. My thinking was foundationless frames throughout the hive with new frames added in the brood box in the spring and then finally into the supers as needed. I really want to know why wired frames are not in the discussion mix when it comes to foundationless beekeeping. Just put it down to my general ignorance of the topic. Most of my beekeeping is done in isolation and this topic (apart from comb honey) is new to me.
Well, I might have been a little offtrack myself. I assumed when you mentioned wire support, you were meaning 'support' in general. No harm done as we all mean well and have good intentions. Our discussion so far, may have helped someone.... :grin:
Hi Phillip. Yes, that is what I meant. I want to prevent sagging or breaking of comb. I would also like to be able to put foundationless frames through a honey extractor (not sure if it is possible- any thoughts?) if it is possible, that would be great. If not, there is no major issue either. It?s all in the quest for knowledge.
We use a full depth frame for comb honey. It simply has a thin piece of wood half way across.
We cut the comb honey out and put the frame back. If it is not suitable for comb honey then we put it through the uncapper and extract it.
84 frame radial that spins fast and no blow outs.
A lot simpler than wiring frames.
If new frame just paint the inside surfaces with melted wax.[attachment=0][/attachment]
OldBeavo I do not recall seeing this idea. Looks simple yet effective.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 08, 2022, 03:24:14 AM
Hi Phillip. Yes, that is what I meant. I want to prevent sagging or breaking of comb. I would also like to be able to put foundationless frames through a honey extractor (not sure if it is possible- any thoughts?) if it is possible, that would be great. If not, there is no major issue either. It?s all in the quest for knowledge.
I don't have an extractor so I'm only going on hearsay, but I think something that's important when extracting with foundationless frames is trying to get the bees to connect the wax to all sides of the frame and all the way to the bottom.
The15thMemberQuoteI think something that's important when extracting with foundationless frames is trying to get the bees to connect the wax to all sides of the frame and all the way to the bottom.
Yes good point Reagan, this has been my experience. In fact this is why I am slowly transcending to plastic. This season I bought the 4 frame extractor recomended to me by 30WFC. On some of the frames that were not attached properly, which were without support (that I shortcuted on past season), as you describe Member, I had to 'take the time', using rubber bands as in a cut out situation, to keep the comb from 'blowing out'. Though this did work in 9 out of ten of this type described comb, it is not fun and time consuming. A great disadvantage in frameless full deeps to be extracted, in my opinion.
Therefore I am with
TheHoneyPump on plastic frames and foundation for honey production as intended for extraction..
Phillip
Sorry for the upside down photo, but the bees will fill all the frame in the super but the comb they form in the super is drone comb.
Haven't tried it in the brood box so i don't know about the bottom edge. it would be interesting to see what would happen if a used frame like the photo was put in the brood box.
Oldbeavo,
You guys who earn a living from this game, have to do things quickly and efficiently. Your idea is so simple and it obviously works well. Thank you. I will try that method. On the point about the comb being attached all the way around the frame, I agree. That is one reason why I put wax on the inside edges of each side of the frame rather than just having a starter strip on the top bar. (Which is what I do if I?m making cut comb) Hopefully this will encourage the bees to fill the entire space. If the bees draw wax out nicely in the honey super, (and build straight over the wire) I will then put a similar frame into the brood box and see what happens. Sorry if this is not the most exciting topic but I?m a tinkerer and if I don?t know an answer to a question, I?ll ask for advice and then experiment to see how things work out. I personally need to do stuff like this as I?m a visual learner. I can then make decisions as to whether something is worth pursuing or put onto the scrap heap. Every beekeepers situation is different. What appeals to some may in in fact be inefficient and unproductive for others. The best part about it is that it generates good discussion where hobby beekeepers can learn tricks and build knowledge from the people who have considerably more experience.
90+ % of mine are wired foundationless. Normally 2 wires in deep brood and 4 in my 7 5/8 honey supers.
Thanks rast. That?s what I wanted to know. Any problems with these frames in the extractor?
I use skewers, they are faster than wire for me, I believe the bees like the skewers better on the small number of frames with wire that I have tried since I started using skewers.
Hi paus,
Phillip mentioned that you were using skewers. What a great idea. Apart from the obvious strength that it gives to the comb, you don?t need all the other gear like tensioners, wire, eyelets, tacks etc. it?s amazing how much stuff we accumulate in this hobby. Do you run these frames through an extractor? Would love to see a pic. of a frame full of brood or honey.
Cheers
Les
Tomorrow will be a week since I placed this frame into a hive. Nectar flow has slowed right down so I?ll be interested to see what the bees have done. From what you guys have said, I?m guessing that they will draw comb right over the wires (Fingers crossed.) Will be keen to see how they react to the wax on the end and bottom bars. I?m assuming they will treat it in the same manner as the mini frames. If the rain holds off, a couple of photos will follow.
Cheers
Les
LesgoldQuoteFrom what you guys have said, I?m guessing that they will draw comb right over the wires (Fingers crossed.) Will be keen to see how they react to the wax on the end and bottom bars.
I haven't used wire but I have used skewers and fishing line. If you placed the frame between two fully drawn out frames then yes, they should draw the comb with the wire incorporated. That is how it works most times with fishing line and skewers in my experience.
Phillip
Had a look just a short while ago and pulled the frame from the super. The girls have done reasonably well over the past week.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Mostly drone comb (as you would expect from the super) and the bees have ignored the wires completely. As the frame had a starter strip placed around every internal side of the frame, I was interested as to how they would approach the task.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
[attachment=2][/attachment]
Not only are they making comb from the top, they are also doing a bit of work on the side and bottom bars. This should ensure that the comb will eventually be attached on all sides giving that extra strength and support that was needed. Will post another pic at some stage when the comb is completely drawn.
Cheers
Les
i found one of our comb honey frames in a brood box. If the comb honey has been kept over winter and candies then we will feed it back to the bees.
this frame must have had the bottom half cut out as the had drawn it out in brood comb but not all the way to the bottom bar.
My thought is that it is too close to the floor of the brood box and there for may be too cool for brood so why bother drawing it out.
Some of our plastic have a small area 1/4" not drawn to the wood, maybe same reason.
Would they draw it different in the top box of a double brood system where the temperature it better?
That?s an interesting observation Oldbeavo. It may well be the case. Your solution also sounds logical.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 10, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Thanks rast. That?s what I wanted to know. Any problems with these frames in the extractor?
A few cracks once in a while, but no total blow outs. I use a tangential extractor and do the first flip early.
Quote from: Oldbeavo l
Would they draw it different in the top box of a double brood system where the temperature it better?
/quote]
Very similar to what is experienced with queen laying with a screen bottom board.
Tried foundationless frames lots of times and used many different combinations. The results have been mixed.
The benefits I see:
Reduction in the cost of the foundation
Easier to cut out any queen cell without damaging them
Natural bee cell size.
Disadvantages:
Way too much drone combe
It's labor-intensive.
Comb not drawn out properly. holes etc.
Wonki comb uneven comb gives that queen too many places to hide when looking for her.
When putting in starter strips make sure they go all the way out to the edges of the frame, the bees would draw it out better.
I have used wire and fishing lines to string out the frames for support of the comb.
I prefer the fishing line as it is cheap and easy to cut. Use a heave nylon fishing line or the bees will chew through it. If I need to cut out a queen cell to use in another hive the fishing line is easier to cut through than the wire.
This year I will be doing some more foundationless and the starter strips will be a 3/4" strip of plastic foundation top and bottom and fishing line for the support.
Thanks guys. That?s the information I wanted to know. I have miles of wire so I will use that up first but would be interested to know how much support fishing line would give wax while it?s in an extractor. I understand that it would be good in a brood box but what about in an extractor? Fishing line stretches and has a lot of ?give? in it. I would have thought that you would end up with too much distortion of cells after being through the extraction process. (Unless you were really careful)
Hi Guys
How much is plastic foundation in the US? Unless you have a heap of time to kill why bother with the alternative contraptions for getting the bees to draw frames.
We buy plastic for $1.10 per sheet.
That?s a good price for plastic foundation. You must be buying in large quantities to get it that cheap.
Quote from: Oldbeavo on January 16, 2022, 03:43:30 PM
Hi Guys
How much is plastic foundation in the US? Unless you have a heap of time to kill why bother with the alternative contraptions for getting the bees to draw frames.
We buy plastic for $1.10 per sheet.
Oldbeavo, I tend to agree.
Current price of one company in California for deeps (9-1/8") ...
Example:
Box of 100 Large White or Black Foundation, with Heavy Wax $125.00. Adding shipping to my location, total: $180.00. Making $1.80 each.
2 Boxes of 52= 104 Large White or Black, One Piece Frames and Foundation, with Heavy Wax $197.60... Shipping to my location total: $307.60 for 104 of these. Making $2.96 each. Still not bad considering the frames and foundation are one piece.
Phillip
Quote from: Lesgold on January 16, 2022, 03:35:35 PM
Thanks guys. That?s the information I wanted to know. I have miles of wire so I will use that up first but would be interested to know how much support fishing line would give wax while it?s in an extractor. I understand that it would be good in a brood box but what about in an extractor? Fishing line stretches and has a lot of ?give? in it. I would have thought that you would end up with too much distortion of cells after being through the extraction process. (Unless you were really careful)
I only use foundationless in the brood boxes not in the supers as I got to many blow outs.
Hi Ben
Plastic foundation $1.10, unassembled full depth frame $1.70, glue and staples???, light wax $0.70
Thats $3.50 without time to assemble.
Full plastic frames at less than $3.00 is a steal.
Best i can find is $3.60 in Australai, unless you go to Alibaba for min 1000 order.
Hi OldBeavo, I was thinking the same-thing.
Phillip
I agree. If you are keeping bees for a living, anything that saves you time, money and provides a durable product that works well should be considered. I really like the discussion and the points that are being raised. It?s great that there are so many options and approaches that can be used.
We have about 200 full plastic in the system, mainly in the brood boxes,
I think t have only broken the lugs off 2 in 12+ years.
The price of conventional frames and wax foundation have gone up where plastic has stayed about the some, and so are very competitive.
In a commercial operation when relatively new they slip sideways a bit in the uncapper until they accumulate some wax on the side bars.
The reason most of ours are in the brood boxes is the when in the supers the bees tend to put more wax on top of the bars of plastic joining them to the above frame making the supers hard to split. bees tend to wax up plastic anything.
Its OK battling with a couple of stuck supers but after 50 or so the plastic went down to the brood.
We haven't got any more than the 200 but i honestly hadn't sat down and done the economics.
If you go down the full plastic road then make sure they are well waxed and draw them on a big flow or in Spring in the brood box.
Thanks again Oldbeavo. You continue to provide really interesting thoughts. That?s one of the main reasons I joined this forum. The information that you and other members have shared really does help. It makes you challenge your own thinking and often question some of the methods that are used. The reason that I started this thread on the foundationless frames was mostly as a learning experience. I am pleased that many of you have provided alternatives to what I?m experimenting with. This information not only provides me with options but it may also help others who are on this journey. I?ll continue to show how this frame progresses and will eventually pop one into the brood box as well. Keep those good thoughts and ideas coming in.
Cheers
Les
A bit of an update on the foundationless frame.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Fully drawn out including the corners.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
It will be interesting to see how it holds up in the extractor at a later date. I will try one in the brood box to see what happens.
Cheers
Les
Les the bees did a fine job of attaching comb all the way around the frame.. Was this your finding on most all frames that you introduced in this same method?
Phillip
Hi Phillip. This was the first test comb introduced into a hive with the starter strip all the way around the inside perimeter of the frame. My test was to answer my initial questions in relation to the bees ignoring the wire and also building to the bottom of the frame. I was so pleased with the results. I will now have to try again with frames in the brood box.
Quote from: Lesgold on January 23, 2022, 03:40:44 PM
Hi Phillip. This was the first test comb introduced into a hive with the starter strip all the way around the inside perimeter of the frame. My test was to answer my initial questions in relation to the bees ignoring the wire and also building to the bottom of the frame. I was so pleased with the results. I will now have to try again with frames in the brood box.
I like it Les. The full deep frames with the partially unattached bottoms and edges (completely foundationless) that I extracted this year, which I did not place skewers or fishing line, where a pain to work with. I wasted a lot of time babying them through the extracting process. Using rubber bands for support.. Though it worked, it was a real bummer.
Phillip
That?s exactly what I want to avoid. If I can get the bees to draw good frames of wax in the brood box, I could move them slowly up into the supers after a couple of cycles of brood have been run through them. They would then be much stronger and handle the extractor quite well. (That?s my thinking at this point.)
Hey, i thought maybe i should post here rather than creating a new thread. I finally managed to get around to wiring up 40 frames last week, and placing them on my 4 currently living hives. It was a bit of a learning process since I've never wired up frames before - I just googled and scrolled this forum a bit before hand and i think it turned out mostly all right. I'm hopeful this will fix my cross-comb problem; it's very hard to work with bees when the frames are all glued together, and i've had more of a problem over the years as i've removed the plastic foundation from all my frames.
So, I'm finally getting around to wiring up my frames, and experimenting a little as I go: drilling holes for the eyelets in frames that don't have holes and getting creative with frames damaged by wax-moth larva and salvaging some of the lesser damaged frames from my bear attacks.
Here are some pictures:
(Note, i'm still conducting my image host experiment - sort of)
https://imgbox.com/g/njSsrY6oHj (https://imgbox.com/g/njSsrY6oHj)
https://postimg.cc/gallery/8fKjnZV (https://postimg.cc/gallery/8fKjnZV)
(this one had some trouble with the upload ordering)
Also, I tried to get the wire as taut as possible without breaking. I'm not sure how much a difference this makes, but it seemed like a good idea.
Here's a video(sound): https://imgur.com/a/aUCXhdA (https://imgur.com/a/aUCXhdA)
Funny thing, a couple of my hives are a little aggressive, and i had a heck of a time getting my smoker to light(it was a cold morning) so the final placement of the boxes took a bit longer than expected(i need to fix my smoker).
I guess now it's just wait and see how it goes. I did realize after the face that i probably made a mistake: I noticed some of my wires weren't all in plane, and in some of the frames i had wired an "X" there were visible gaps between the wires. I probably need to fix this going forward, though i guess it will be interesting to see how the bees handle it.
After browsing this thread again, I'm also thinking now i might have also messed up by not placing a wooden starter in my grooved frames. I suppose we'll just have to see how it goes...
...Anyway, Ukraine is still on fire.
On a positive note, I think i might be finally getting over Covid!
I have physical tomorrow ;)
I'm attaching 4 photos in case the links go bad. what gauge wire is that? 26awg?
The secret to making wires tight is to make a jig so that the centers of the side bars are pushed inwards a bit. then wire the frame by tightening wires as you move down the wires. Tie is off on the nail and the as you loosen off the pressure on the side bars they take up and make the wires tight.
You only bow the side bars about 1/4".
I wired some a couple years ago, but am moving to plastic lately. I didn?t have a jig, but kinda pressed the frame against the edge of the counter to bow it in when I ?tied the wire off?. It worked fine. I posted a video. I?ll see if I can find it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NSVyV5cQEBs
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep, that works fine. It would be a little more complex with 4 wires but it would still be possible. With a few off cuts and 30 minutes of spare time, a framing jig is a simple project that basically costs nothing. I?ve been using mine now for years. In saying that, framing jigs are not all that expensive to buy. There is plenty of options as to how the job can be done.
Quote from: Lesgold on March 19, 2022, 02:22:36 AM
Yep, that works fine. It would be a little more complex with 4 wires but it would still be possible. With a few off cuts and 30 minutes of spare time, a framing jig is a simple project that basically costs nothing. I?ve been using mine now for years. In saying that, framing jigs are not all that expensive to buy. There is plenty of options as to how the job can be done.
No doubt, if I were going to keep it up I?d build a jig.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk