Here is a question I have from some recent discussions.
There are advocates for 10 frame boxes and advocates for 8 frame boxes. Almost equal counts of pros and cons to each and over each other. Lets say I want to try some 8 frame hive setups to get direct comparisons on how that performs to the 10 frame hive right next to it. But I have all 10 frame equipment. What is out there available for purchase or to make as blocks inserts that will drop into the 10 frame box, completely fill and block off the full 2 frame space? It needs to lightweight/featherweight, be cheap to buy or very low time to make, and will work for the entire hive stack, meaning there is a block in each box and each super in a hive that is 6 to 7 deeps tall. I might like to try it and see how the bees behave in the narrower but taller stack, but I have no money and no time to go on a box construction/modification odyssey.
.. Suggestions of cutting down boxes are excluded from the inquiry.
What have folks done or what ideas are out there for such an insert?
THP,
I recommend using foam insulation boards with fill backing. Just cut them so that they are tight fitting.
Jim Altmiller
HoneyPump, I suppose some proper size inserts could be made reducing a 10 frame space to an 8 frame space. If you don't mind me asking; Will this possibly lead to an experiment to see which you like best, (10 or 8 frames), that is, if you get the positive responses you seek? If so, (and for curiosity), how many hives do you anticipate on using in your very own experiment? The reason I ask, there are frame feeders which 'might' fit the bill for inserts, decreasing the need to build inserts from scratch for a simple experiment? Just throwing it out there for your consideration.
Phillip
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on May 18, 2022, 12:47:54 AM
THP,
I recommend using foam insulation boards with fill backing. Just cut them so that they are tight fitting.
Jim Altmiller
Never mind my suggestion, I like Jims much better!
Phillip
Frame feeders wou also work very well.
Jim Altmiller
Thanks Jim, if the right size frame freeder is used it should work just fine, but I like your idea much better. Cost efficiency, (cheeper), and precision (of size of spacer) can be achieved all in one. Frame feeders can be expensive on a large scale experiment as opposed to your suggestion. Hats off to you. :grin:
Phillip
PS
Using a multi-functional oscillating tool will make cutting foam board easy and precise.
The problem is you would be comparing a 10 frame hive to a modified 10 frame hive not a 8 frame hive. The pros and cons of each box are well documented. No need to re invent the wheel. Just need to decide what you want.
I don't like filling space with blanks like you are considering.
When I had some situations like that, it created space the bees couldn't get to but never sealed enough to keep out ants and beetles. I always ended up with pest problems.
Using a feeder would be the only way I would try it so the bees can still do housekeeping.
For any long term comparison I think you need true 8 frame boxes.
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My first thought was foam blocks that was already suggested. Depending of what type of foam used, the bees might chew it up. The feeder sounds like an easy fix but they are not cheap, depending on how many hives you are going to experiment with. A follower board made out of a 1x cut to fit tightly and tacked into place would work, but would require some wood working skills and time to make.
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 18, 2022, 12:50:17 AM
HoneyPump, I suppose some proper size inserts could be made reducing a 10 frame space to an 8 frame space. If you don't mind me asking; Will this possibly lead to an experiment to see which you like best, (10 or 8 frames), that is, if you get the positive responses you seek? If so, (and for curiosity), how many hives do you anticipate on using in your very own experiment? The reason I ask, there are frame feeders which 'might' fit the bill for inserts, decreasing the need to build inserts from scratch for a simple experiment? Just throwing it out there for your consideration.
Phillip
My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey. I am not putting 6 feeders in a hive nor am I game to give them a chance to pack out feeders with bridge combs full of honey.
Am not looking a 1 or 2 brood boxes. I am talking the whole hive for and entire year cycle. Multiple hives in the experiment. Enough that cost and effort for modification is a huge factor.
QuoteMy hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey. I am not putting 6 feeders in a hive nor am I game to give them a chance to pack out feeders with bridge combs full of honey.
Yes I knew they are 6-7 deep from your previous post and pictures. That is why I ask if this was an experiment and how many hives you might anticipate using in your very own experiment?
If only one or two hives, then the frame feeders might have been a consideration. If not as I responded to Beemaster2 *Thanks Jim, if the right size frame freeder is used it should work just fine, but I like your idea much better. Cost efficiency, (cheeper), and precision (of size of spacer) can be achieved all in one. Frame feeders can be expensive on a large scale experiment as opposed to your suggestion.*
Phillip
HoneyPump, What is the purpose or objective of your interest in 8 Frame experimentation? From my understanding, most choose to go with 8 frames because of hive weight concerns. Is there a different reason for you? With your equipment, weight should not be of concern? Nor should hive heights though your 8 frame boxes will now be 7-9 boxes high.
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 18, 2022, 03:04:46 PM
HoneyPump, What is the purpose or objective of your interest in 8 Frame experimentation? From my understanding, most choose to go with 8 frames because of hive weight concerns. Is there a different reason for you? With your equipment, weight should not be of concern? Nor should hive heights though your 8 frame boxes will now be 7-9 boxes high.
Phillip
Difficult to fully put into text. My interest is in assessing overall beehive performance through a 2 year cycle. Overall means ALL indices of performance and how the effects of those cascade through the management of the business. Am approaching this as a matter of beehive performance and critter preference, not as subjective human personal choice or preference. I have my bias to 10F, but am open minded and thinking about trying some. I am short but stalky and burly furry guy, I do not care about box size or weight - that pro-con is not in the mix of indices.
So, basically I am looking for simple and practical suggestions of what has been done successfully for managing 8 frames of bees in hi-stacks of 10 frame boxes. Has to be cheap, has to be easy, has to work. I have other inputs. Just figured I would check in here on what experiences there are in the BM group, and would be an interesting thread for the group.
I do not feel am reinventing or re-experimenting anything. Am taking a focused look at it wrt my particular operation and style, and this could be an interesting discussion here on BM.
PS: the scope is less that a hundred boxes for the trial period. Depending on what the results are, the impact would be on thousands of boxes.
BIG THUMBS UP!
I wish you success in your endeavor!
Thanks,
Phillip
Adding just for your consideration:
Once a solution or choice has been made which fits your need, a replacement for two frames might be placed, one on each side of the super box. That way the mid box will still have an even distribution of weight. In other words the weight of honey will be equal when lifting each box. Two missing on one side and two still remaining on the other side (might) make the box a little out of balance when lifted. (If it matters).
Phillip
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 18, 2022, 01:56:30 PM
My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey.
You better plan on extracting multiple times or you will be dealing with a ladder.
I'd go with pink Ownes-Corner "Foamular One" lining each side AND cut it 1/8" short on all sides and skin it with Luan wood sheeting. 3 pcs Luan: top, side, bottom. Edges and back meet the hive body. Use Titebond or Loctite Powertgrab to glue the foam on and adhere the Luan.
Luan is lightweight & inexpensive compared to pine or plywood. Set the table saw fence and let 'er rip. Chop to length.
Because otherwise...like Doug494 said... housekeeping problems with SHB & ants, wax moths, german roaches.
The bees will propolize the Luan-faced corners, top, and bottom of the side "shim."
Luan is pretty good with moisture, but the experiment would show HOW good it is when covered with proposlis/wax.
Quote from: Acebird on May 18, 2022, 04:04:02 PM
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 18, 2022, 01:56:30 PM
My hives end up 6 to 7 deeps tall full of bees and honey.
You better plan on extracting multiple times or you will be dealing with a ladder.
No issue there. I pull 3 boxes at a time and 3 to 4 times over the flow period. Typical is 220-280 pounds per hive in the barrel by the end of the summer
Quote from: FloridaGardener on May 18, 2022, 08:08:26 PM
I'd go with pink Ownes-Corner "Foamular One" lining each side AND cut it 1/8" short on all sides and skin it with Luan wood sheeting. 3 pcs Luan: top, side, bottom. Edges and back meet the hive body. Use Titebond or Loctite Powertgrab to glue the foam on and adhere the Luan.
Luan is lightweight & inexpensive compared to pine or plywood. Set the table saw fence and let 'er rip. Chop to length.
Because otherwise...like Doug494 said... housekeeping problems with SHB & ants, wax moths, german roaches.
The bees will propolize the Luan-faced corners, top, and bottom of the side "shim."
Luan is pretty good with moisture, but the experiment would show HOW good it is when covered with proposlis/wax.
I do not have SHB here to adapt to, yet. The season is so short that ants and moths only become a mild issue when the hive numbers do not have enough girth to properly patrol the space.
The luan could work. It should be lightweight and probably hold up for awhile. The idea of gluing 3 to 4 cut pieces onto foam for ### sheets would be too time consuming though. What may be quickest would be some sort of bee chew proof but bee friendly coating that that foam could be dipped in and left outside in a stack to dry. Or even better, some sort of vacuum bagging machine big enough to handle the foam insert size and thickness. Rip out the foam pieces on the table saw, then suck / shrink and seal closed a plastic over it with some sort of bagging machine.
I am bumping this interesting topic considering TheHoneyPumps' experiment.
Phillip
8 frame boxes will always be lighter than 10 frame boxes. That is the choice.
Cheapest space fillers I use are polystyrene blocks cut to size and wrapped in aluminium tape to prevent bees "chewing them". Incorporate a single piece of wooden frame top bar so they sit on the lip of the hives like a normal frame and jobs done. One of these blocks changes a 6 frame nuc into a 4 frame nuc and they can be removed as colony size increases. Not used them over a full year but no major damage to date.
Dead simple to make.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 18, 2022, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: FloridaGardener on May 18, 2022, 08:08:26 PM
I'd go with pink Ownes-Corner "Foamular One" lining each side AND cut it 1/8" short on all sides and skin it with Luan wood sheeting. 3 pcs Luan: top, side, bottom. Edges and back meet the hive body. Use Titebond or Loctite Powertgrab to glue the foam on and adhere the Luan.
Luan is lightweight & inexpensive compared to pine or plywood. Set the table saw fence and let 'er rip. Chop to length.
Because otherwise...like Doug494 said... housekeeping problems with SHB & ants, wax moths, german roaches.
The bees will propolize the Luan-faced corners, top, and bottom of the side "shim."
Luan is pretty good with moisture, but the experiment would show HOW good it is when covered with proposlis/wax.
I do not have SHB here to adapt to, yet. The season is so short that ants and moths only become a mild issue when the hive numbers do not have enough girth to properly patrol the space.
The luan could work. It should be lightweight and probably hold up for awhile. The idea of gluing 3 to 4 cut pieces onto foam for ### sheets would be too time consuming though. What may be quickest would be some sort of bee chew proof but bee friendly coating that that foam could be dipped in and left outside in a stack to dry. Or even better, some sort of vacuum bagging machine big enough to handle the foam insert size and thickness. Rip out the foam pieces on the table saw, then suck / shrink and seal closed a plastic over it with some sort of bagging machine.
Just use the luan; you don't need insulation for a follower board inside the main box. Or I would use cheap school glue to make two-ply sheets of cardboard. With the corrugations running perpendicular to each other. That would cut with a saw, a utility knife, or even stout scissors, and I don't think the bees would chew it.
Or corrugated plastic political signs but the ears will be flimsy unless you make them two-ply with rubber cement.
If bees have access to the pink "foamular" or the green equivalent they will haul it out the front; it will sound like rice crispies when you stand by the hive from the chewing. I tried to make some five frame boxes from the aluminum faced stuff and the bees basically tore their house down from the inside.
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Quote from: yes2matt on March 25, 2023, 10:40:04 PM
I tried to make some five frame boxes from the aluminum faced stuff and the bees basically tore their house down from the inside.
How did they get through the foil?
Quote from: Acebird on March 26, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
Quote from: yes2matt on March 25, 2023, 10:40:04 PM
I tried to make some five frame boxes from the aluminum faced stuff and the bees basically tore their house down from the inside.
How did they get through the foil?
Everywhere there was a cut and exposed foam. They would go mining and remove all of it.
I use foamular for solid outer covers in the style of migratory covers (no inner cover) they excavate all manner of cavities and entrances. Requires window screen to protect the foam, which adds a step and materials.
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If the foil got compromised then it should have been repaired with foil tape. I use to use foam insulation on top of my covers in the winter and early spring. They couldn't get at the foam from the inside but they had full access from outside the hive. Never touched a one.
I also am curious about how the experiment turned out.
Quote from: yes2matt on March 26, 2023, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Acebird on March 26, 2023, 08:03:56 AM
Quote from: yes2matt on March 25, 2023, 10:40:04 PM
I tried to make some five frame boxes from the aluminum faced stuff and the bees basically tore their house down from the inside.
How did they get through the foil?
Everywhere there was a cut and exposed foam. They would go mining and remove all of it.
I use foamular for solid outer covers in the style of migratory covers (no inner cover) they excavate all manner of cavities and entrances. Requires window screen to protect the foam, which adds a step and materials.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
I made a picture, the foamular outer cover with four upper entrances, one of which was used as an external beetle jail.
This was one hell of a colony of bees, I've never had anything like them for building up and filling boxes and chasing you out of the yard if you bumped the box. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230328/87cdb46d307eecaf0d3e859766813188.jpg)
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:oops: Where is the foil? Or any form of protection?
Is that spray-foam? and the foil where is it?
Quote from: Bob Wilson on March 26, 2023, 06:40:09 PM
I also am curious about how the experiment turned out.
X 2
Quote from: Bill Murray on March 28, 2023, 08:42:14 AM
Is that spray-foam? and the foil where is it?
Looks like board insulation to me.
The only flaw in the modification of 10 frames to 8 is that what ever you use will create a bias.
65mm polystyrene will take the place of 2 frames, the bees only chew it when they run out of room. This or any other solid frame replacement will tend to insulate the side of the 10 frame box, better for the 8 frame bees.
If you insert a 2 frame feeder you will have the opposite effect by providing space the will be needed to be kept warm.
HP, from what i understand of your system of stacking supers, for the 8 frame system the stack will be higher.
The weight is why we are an 8 frame system, and at over 70 yo the lifting of an 8 frame super full of honey 4 high is becoming a struggle. We are using our Ezy-loader crane more often to harvest full supers.
Having spent some of my life in agricultural research i am insure that if 100 hives will give you a conclusive result. The variation in bees would be a variable, that you may have to requeen the 100 8 frames and 100 10 frame comparisons with queens that are split equally between the groups.
I am unsure if the work required in modification and measuring honey yields will give you meaningful result.
Another way of looking at the trial is to buy the required 8 frame hives and boxes, put your bees into them, run the trial and if the 8 frames are better then you have a head start on converting, or if the trail is in the favour of the 10 frames, then sell the 8 frame set ups with bees, hopefully at a profit.
Easy to say HP as it is not my money.
For those looking for followup info.
I tried a few with cut foam inserts wrapped in tech tape to protect the foam. The spacers worked well. What did not work well is that loss of 20% of volume per box. Very quickly became an issue of over packed hives and swarming. Experiment done, 8F does not work and is unmanageable here. Completely abandoned the idea. Sticking with 10F standard.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on March 30, 2023, 12:28:07 PM
What did not work well is that loss of 20% of volume per box. Very quickly became an issue of over packed hives and swarming. Experiment done, 8F does not work and is unmanageable here.
When you did this experiment did you add boxes so the number of frames were the same? A narrower hive is a taller hive.
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on March 30, 2023, 12:28:07 PM
For those looking for followup info.
I tried a few with cut foam inserts wrapped in tech tape to protect the foam. The spacers worked well. What did not work well is that loss of 20% of volume per box. Very quickly became an issue of over packed hives and swarming. Experiment done, 8F does not work and is unmanageable here. Completely abandoned the idea. Sticking with 10F standard.
Thanks HoneyPump for sharing the idea of your experiment, conducting the experiment, and thank you for sharing the results. Appreciate you as always.
Phillip
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on March 30, 2023, 12:28:07 PM
For those looking for followup info.
I tried a few with cut foam inserts wrapped in tech tape to protect the foam. The spacers worked well. What did not work well is that loss of 20% of volume per box. Very quickly became an issue of over packed hives and swarming. Experiment done, 8F does not work and is unmanageable here. Completely abandoned the idea. Sticking with 10F standard.
THP,
Were the hives that had 10 frames bursting at the seams? If not, the extra insulation may have made a difference.
Jim Altmiller
I have a handfull of 8 frames. I tried them and had te same problem, Management they were to needy, and time consuming. If you didnt put the time in they were hanging in the trees. I use them now to hive boxes that are struggling till i requeen them. once they are back on track go back to 10 frame.
It may be locale, but in Nebraska I really prefer 8 frame, and not just for weight, though that is nice, but for wintering. The bees often don't use the outside frames and in the winter they often don't eat the outside frames.