Your thoughts?
https://youtu.be/arg8sdmS5EM
You might try the way that Bill Murray does it. He puts a dehumidifier in a small room and hangs the frames in the room. It think he leaves them there for one day and they dry up.
Jim Altmiller
It is my understanding that high moisture content honey is best dehumidified before extraction. Bills' way works for him and I commend him. We have had some good discussions here at Beemaster about this problem. We discussed multiple ways of solving the problem. Even on a large scale, such as Bob Binnies way was also shown and posted here with a video, then discussed. One thing we did not come to a conclusion on, (if I recall correctly), was how to effectively deal with high moisture content honey (after) extraction with success? This video deals with that problem.
Phillip
I have used a dehumidifier in a small room and dripped the honey from one bucket on the sink to a bucket sitting on the floor. The slower the drip the better. I also put a small fan aimed at the stream of honey. Before I bought the dehumidifier I did the same thing but it took longer to dry out.
Jim Altmiller
Dehumidifiers work. I think it works better still in the combs because of the increase in surface area. Carl Killion wrote about doing this for his comb honey and had some very scientific work on the topic. But it also works after it's extracted. And the more surface area, the better it works.
I harvested 300 lbs 2 weeks ago. I closed off my foyer with plastic drop cloths. Stacked boxes on a couple 2x4. Placed box fans on top. Ran fans and dehumidifier for 2 days. Dropped moisture from 18.5 to 15.5.
>Dropped moisture from 18.5 to 15.5.
Good job.
The issue I have with circulating air is it puts dirt into the honey unless the honey is within a class 1 clean room. Definitely it is better to do this while still in the frame when the honey is capped.
Quote from: BurleyBee on July 08, 2022, 11:33:04 AM
dropped moisture from 18.5 to 15.5.
Struggling to understand why you would do this. Is the legal water content lower in the states than the UK?
Here anything 20% or less is legal honey. Lots of my summer blossom is 18-19%.
It's because of fermentation .
Processing Honey: A Closer Look: Bee Culture
https://www.beeculture.com ? proce...
Honey with a low spore count of one per gram will usually not ferment with a moisture content of up to 19%. Honey with a spore count of ten per gram needs to be 18.6% moisture or lower to be safe. A high spore count of 1,000 or more needs to have 17% moisture or lower, or fermentation can occur.
Mar 27, 2018
Quote from: Acebird on July 09, 2022, 09:02:32 AM
The issue I have with circulating air is it puts dirt into the honey unless the honey is within a class 1 clean room. Definitely it is better to do this while still in the frame when the honey is capped.
Ace,
The bees cap honey to keep the honey from absorbing moisture. Therefore it also will not allow the honey to dry out if it is capped.
Putting the supers in a dehumidified room with a fan is to dry the un capped honey.
Jim Altmiller
From the
TOPIC:
"Fermentation?"Mr Binnie discusses drying capped honey around 18:40, though he states this method is not ideal 'for capped honey'. Mr Binnie discusses this and other aspects of moisture and fermentation as well. A good video!
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on August 27, 2021, 01:38:38 PM
Quote
I'll see if I can find that video, Bob Binnie always has great advice. While it is unfortunate, it's yet another opportunity to learn, which I am always grateful for. :smile:
I found it. He discusses many outlooks including cold, heat, taste of honey, etc. enjoy!
https://youtu.be/qAat1XQ-yiI
Quote from: NigelP on July 09, 2022, 09:11:39 AM
Quote from: BurleyBee on July 08, 2022, 11:33:04 AM
dropped moisture from 18.5 to 15.5.
Struggling to understand why you would do this. Is the legal water content lower in the states than the UK?
Here anything 20% or less is legal honey. Lots of my summer blossom is 18-19%.
Fermentation, and I think it just makes for a better product.
Burley simply for the sake of curiosity, what kind of honey was it?
Phillip
Mainly Tallow. Last year it was 21, but was very humid on harvest day. This year it was 100 degrees but only 35% humidity. Maybe that was the difference. Honey was also darker (amber) this year.
Thanks Burley, the lower humidity must have helped.
Another video, (a short video), by Bob Binnie concerning moisture and honey.
https://youtu.be/B2-w4P8BPsQ
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 09, 2022, 10:10:31 AM
It's because of fermentation .
Processing Honey: A Closer Look: Bee Culture
https://www.beeculture.com ? proce...
Honey with a low spore count of one per gram will usually not ferment with a moisture content of up to 19%. Honey with a spore count of ten per gram needs to be 18.6% moisture or lower to be safe. A high spore count of 1,000 or more needs to have 17% moisture or lower, or fermentation can occur.
Mar 27, 2018
Ben at 20% moisture I've yet to see any ferment........Just a practical observation. Not sure where your spore counts come into it, osmophilic yeasts cannot ferment below 20% regardless of their numbers.
Nigel,
I just had an entire batch of honey crystallize and start to ferment. It was at 18.5 when we bottled it. I melted it in my honey heater, 104 degrees. It has started to crystallize again. Judy has been making creamed honey out of it. Some of it has a fermented taste but she likes it and some of our customers really like it. The good thing is that it is now stable.
Jim Altmiller
Nigel I personally have not had fermenting honey problems. When I first heard of this problem experienced by members here at Beemaster some time ago concerning fermenting honey I was puzzled as a newer beekeeper at the time. This was a new subject for me.
When I ran across the video above, I remembered those past discussions and placed the video in my first post here. Yet another method for dealing with high moisture content In Honey with hopes it might help anyone that has experienced fermenting problems in the past. For this cause I posted the original video, hoping it may be of service. Beside that I know little of fermenting honey. Mainly what has been discussed here in the past. I am no expert on this matter. 🙂
Phillip
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on July 10, 2022, 07:37:42 AM
Nigel,
I just had an entire batch of honey crystallize and start to ferment. It was at 18.5 when we bottled it. I melted it in my honey heater, 104 degrees. It has started to crystallize again. Judy has been making creamed honey out of it. Some of it has a fermented taste but she likes it and some of our customers really like it. The good thing is that it is now stable.
Jim Altmiller
If I recall my chemistry correctly when honey crystallises the water content increases in some areas. As the crystals form the water content of the honey rises, although that water later becomes trapped as Water of hydration in the crystals themselves. That said I store in buckets and let it crystallise with (to date) no problem. Mind, in the UK temperatures most of the year round it would be too cold for yeasts to work the honey even it was below that 20% threshold :smile:. Osmophilic yeasts simply cannot multiply in honey with 20% water content (or less).
The only honey we get fermentation problems with is Heather honey which is allowed to be sold up to 23% water content. This is the only honey I take the trouble to make sure is below 20% moisture before extraction and placing in buckets. I use a Lyson supers dryer which blows warm air through a stack of supers.
(https://www.abelo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Supers-Heater-Trolley-1-1200.jpg)
Nigel,
In your described situation, are you speaking of uncapped or capped frames with 23 percent moisture content?
Phillip
Mainly uncapped Ben.
>The bees cap honey to keep the honey from absorbing moisture. Therefore it also will not allow the honey to dry out if it is capped.
Putting the supers in a dehumidified room with a fan is to dry the un capped honey.
Carl Killion's data on the topic would prove otherwise. He would dry out comb honey while it was still in the comb.
I actually use a nearly identical setup to this original post. I have a proofing cabinet from a bakery and load honey with too much moisture onto baking sheets just like the video and instead of a dehydrator unit, I use the cabinet's internal heating system which has a circulating air system to dehydrate the moisture. I set the temp to 100 to keep it just below the level that would breakdown the enzymes. The bakery pans create a huge surface area and I stir them every hour or so to change up the honey that is exposed at the surface. It has worked very well for me and usually only takes a day to dehydrate most honey's to below 18%
Thanks, Phillip.
Here's a photo for reference of my cabinet described in my post above.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Thanks Jurassic, good post 'as always'!
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 10, 2022, 04:48:31 PM
Nigel,
In your described situation, are you speaking of uncapped or capped frames with 23 percent moisture content?
Phillip
Quote from: NigelP on July 11, 2022, 04:19:51 AM
Mainly uncapped Ben.
Thanks Nigel I have heard of it fermenting even when capped if the moisture level is too high. But as you explained, conditions such as temperatures as well as types of yeast content, plays a role.
Jtcmedic reported on such an experience of capped honey fermenting here at Beemaster a couple of years ago on the Topic:
"Capped high moisture honey"Quote from: jtcmedic on September 02, 2020, 03:20:35 PM
Well yesterday I pulled a deep off one of my hives that the caps were bubbling but for my area and the moisture was capped pretty well. After extracting it I used my Refractometer And it was at 20% have never seen capped honey with so much moisture, so we have been making some Jalape?o fermented honey with it, also making some honey Fermented cranberries. Will see how it played out.
The room is 18' by 15' and I stack the supers crossways,not hang them, running a fan and TOSOT 70 Pint Dehumidifier for Spaces up to 4500 sq. ft. It keeps the humidity down in the room to 30. I usually leave the uncapped honey in there max 2 days due to hive beetles. The only problem ive found is because I just spot check, is some can get really dry. Also found it dosnt work t
so special on capped honey. Maybe it would if it could stay longer, but not a good idea, due to beatles. The dripping idea after extraction just dosnt appeal to me. CABBAGE PALMETTO, not to be confused with SAW PALMETTO, also is wet, wet with large amounts of natural yeast, ferments easily in the 18.5 percent range.
Thank you Bill for your valuable input.
Phillip
Quote from: Michael Bush on July 11, 2022, 07:19:36 AM
>The bees cap honey to keep the honey from absorbing moisture. Therefore it also will not allow the honey to dry out if it is capped.
Putting the supers in a dehumidified room with a fan is to dry the un capped honey
I test the capped and uncapped when drying honey and have noticed that even the capped honey moisture decreases in the process.
Burley how long you leave it in the drying room?
No more than 3 days. It depends on the starting moisture content.
what do you normally get out of the capped?
Everything depends on conditions around you. I?ve harvested capped honey in the spring that?s as low as 14, but my summer flow (mainly tallow), has a reputation of having a high moisture content. I personally believe it has a lot to do with the high humidity here in Mississippi. Last year I harvested and humidity was pretty high. MC was 20-22 even in capped honey. This year moisture content in capped was around 17.5-18 (humidity day of harvest 35 and 100 degrees). It dropped to 15-16.5 in 2 days.
I like the drying room while still in comb. It also allows me not to worry if it?s capped. I?m getting more comfortable with my flows and know they just won?t cap at a certain point.
I understand there are a lot of factors up to going in the drying room, my humidity level in the drying room stays a constant 30 and my capped honey dosnt drop even a fraction of what my uncapped does. Do you think it might be a relational issue. more uncapped at higher water content and the dehumidifier cant keep up.
Thanks a lot for your time,
Bill
> I usually leave the uncapped honey in there max 2 days due to hive beetles.
If you can get the humidity low enough the hive beetle larvae can't hatch. 20% would seem a good goal, but may not be doable in Florida...