I had the opportunity to receive a new, unused 14 frame Layen's hive. It seems like they are kept with the same basic management practices as long hives or top bar hives. Any other people keeping them?
What a great opportunity! I'm interested in them as well but I've never used one
I will throw some bees in it in March and give the thing a try.
Wow, that's awesome! It will be interesting to hear how the bees do in it.
This Layens hive that I was given holds 14 frames. Does anyone have one with more frames than that?
Bob, how deep is that hive? Does it have 16 inch deep frames?
I have someone bringing a 16 inch deep hive to BeeFest.
Jim Altmiller
Hey, Jim.
Yes. It is 16X13 inches (DXW).
I think I have seen 20 frame Layens hives on YouTube, but this one has 14, which is apparently the standard.
-- I don't understand this.
It has less volume than my 4ft long hives with langstroth deep frames, and I already have questions about enough space for the bees to cure honey without backfilling the brood nest.
That one issue is my primary experiment with my long hives this year, and I suppose with this Layens also.
I am going to take off this wax sheeting and run it foundationless like the rest of my hives.
You might want to put a skewer vertically in the center to support the comb. Having that deep of a comb may need some support.
Yes, I agree Michael.
The guy who gave it to me had already wired them. The way the foundation is sagging, I can easily imagine foundationless comb collapse.
I ripped a 2x6 and attached it to the side of the Layen's frame and added a frame rest.
It fits in my extra deep langstroth swarm boxes. If I catch a swarm, I will put the other langstroth deep frames into my long hives, but then disassemble the Layen's frame (with the queen) and populate this hive.
I also cut down the comb from 2 deep frames and fit it into the Layen's frame so the swarm's queen can immediately start laying on that one frame when she moves in.
I found a swarm low near the ground. Now, I don't have to rely on the adapted swarm trap frame. I was able to shake the queen into the Layens hive and let the swarm follow her inside, where I have some old comb wired into one of the frames.
That's fantastic!
I saw the 18 in frames demonstrated at Beefest. Not for me. I hate using deeps.
Bob, you think you can get the bees to run 18 inches of comb straight without foundation? Wish you luck. I never had either hive but I would go with your drawn comb even if it is just the top deep section.
This isn't a double deep langstroth hive (19wX18h). I would think that would have a lot of comb collapse.
This is a Layen's hive. (13wX16h) if I remember the size. I received it free from a fellow I helped earlier, so I figured why not try it on the side, so to speak.
I never have any cross comb trouble with foundationless standard deep frames in any of my hives or nucs, so I don't expect any trouble with these. We shall see.
Ace,
I still have that double deep hive.
I put the one frame of drawn comb up against the right wall and foundation less frames in the rest of the hive. We caught swarm from the observation hive the day after BeeFest was knee. At first they only covered two and a half frames. Now they cover five frames. They are doing real well.
Jim Altmiller
Well, Acebird. I spoke too soon.
The swarm which I put in the Layens hive ignored the starter strips in the foundationless frames and built cross comb. It was a mess, but I got it cut out and rubber banded strait in the frames.
My problem here is that the Layens is new to me, and these are the very first combs. Give me a month or two, and when I have a few full frames to use, I won't have anymore of this cross comb business.
My one issue now is that with a langstroth deep frame (9in), any comb I rubber band into place is not far from the top of the frame, but these Layen's frames (16in) are taller, and they may build cross comb at the top again, even though there is straight comb at the bottom.
QuoteMy one issue now is that with a langstroth deep frame (9in), any comb I rubber band into place is not far from the top of the frame, but these Layen's frames (16in) are taller, and they may build cross comb at the top again, even though there is straight comb at the bottom.
Bob, could you maybe put a temporary stick under the shorter comb to hold it next to the top until the bees glue it tight?
Quote from: Bob Wilson on March 29, 2023, 09:48:48 AM
Well, Acebird. I spoke too soon.
The swarm which I put in the Layens hive ignored the starter strips in the foundationless frames and built cross comb. It was a mess, but I got it cut out and rubber banded strait in the frames.
My problem here is that the Layens is new to me, and these are the very first combs. Give me a month or two, and when I have a few full frames to use, I won't have anymore of this cross comb business.
My one issue now is that with a langstroth deep frame (9in), any comb I rubber band into place is not far from the top of the frame, but these Layen's frames (16in) are taller, and they may build cross comb at the top again, even though there is straight comb at the bottom.
If you just try and piecemeal it as best you can, they should be fine once you have a couple of frames nicely built. It's a lot of work, but I just cut and pasted for my first colonies, and it worked out fine. I've still never used foundation.
Quote from: jimineycricket on March 29, 2023, 10:43:01 AM
Bob, could you maybe put a temporary stick under the shorter comb to hold it next to the top until the bees glue it tight?
That's not a bad idea.
Bob, how many frames did you start with? I dont have a lyens but I am running double deep frames in a hive as an experiment. I installed a swarm on two singe deeps one over the other. one double deep on each side with empty feeders filling the voids. once good comb was started removed two feeders ( one was over the top of the other) added two more frames. Maybe too much room, just a thought.
I cut all the cross comb out, and strapped the larger pieces into the bottom half of 3 different frames.
Thankfully, I had a full Layens frame, which I had filled out with 2 large pieces of drawn langstroth comb, cut down to fit, and which was in a swarm box recently occupied. That will go a long way towards guiding the comb building straight.
Plus, they already started building the top area of the 3 partial frames again, and not too badly, so I was able to trim and straighten a lot of that out to match the pieces below.
15thmember.
You not only have some long hives, but a Layen's also?
Quote from: Bob Wilson on April 01, 2023, 08:34:44 AM
15thmember.
You not only have some long hives, but a Layen's also?
No, I actually use all medium langstroths. But like I said, I've never used foundation, and I don't plan to start now, so I have experience working with wonky comb. :grin: I am interested in alternate hive types though, just out of curiosity really. I always like hearing how you manage your long hives and now the Layens.
I also use foundationless since I started 5years ago. Never any trouble with it straight comb.
This Layens is going to be a little different from my long hives. De Layen's claim is 2 visits a year. One for spring set up, and a fall harvest /winter trip. I have a hard time believing it won't swarm.
I just reserved his book, "keeping bees in horizontal hives" from the public library. I look forward to figuring it out.
So if you can figure out the management differential from Lillie France VS Georgia, you might be able to pull that off. I guess It would be tryin to figure out exactly how many frames need to be run. On top of a few other minor details.
So now Im going to ask probably a dumb question. I traded off some 16" deep frames at beefest for 2 extra deep nuc boxes.
I hived a swarm that took up residence in a couple boxes of freshly waxed foundation. on those 16 inch deep frames. They are doing amazingly well, but how would I ever spin those frames???????
Bill,
I also started that double deep hive right after BeeFest. We won?t bee able to extract frames bt we could make cut comb with it them.
Jim Altmiller
Quote from: Bill Murray on April 01, 2023, 10:08:15 PM
They are doing amazingly well, but how would I ever spin those frames???????
Isn't the idea that the 16 in frames are for the brood nest and you would use mediums on top for honey? Crush and strain for a dead out.
See, I said it was probably a dumb question.
Not a dumb question. There are no dumb questions.
Yes, Ace, that one was. I had a case of tunnel vision, was on a different page and wasnt thinking. Thanks though my friend for trying to raise my self esteem, but Im good.
I got rid of the wire in the frames and put a single dowel through the middle.
I plan on crush and straining the Layen's frames .
I couldn't find the queen in the Layens a few days ago. The swarm was a virgin swarm, I believe. Regardless, I wanted the nice, full Layens comb frame I used to bait a swarm trap, which did in fact catch a swarm. So 2 days ago I combined that swarm with the good frame, with the queenless swarm in the Layens.
Today, I finished putting both sets of frames together. It is looking strong, and they are filling out the Layen's frames quickly.
Bill and Jim.
So, I understand that you have built a double deep brood box with solid, double deep comb in the frames?
That would mean the brood nest would have lot of room and a large honey band above for winter migration.
Then you plan on putting medium supers on top?
Bob,
Yes that is the plan. It will bee a while before I can add a super. It was a small swarm that came from my observation hive but it seems to bee building up fast. They are working on five double deep frames and they only covered one frame when I put them in this hive.
Jim Altmiller
Once I got the initial cross comb straightened out, the bees have been building straight since. There are 5 full frames and 4 half frames built it in the last few weeks.
Bob,
I checked on the double deep hive yesterday they are building nice straight comb and filling up the hive fast. They are half way done with frame 6 and starting on frame 7. Not bad for a small swarm that started on March 7.
They did not touch the out side of frame one, it is a plasticel frame. The one next to it was a drawn plasticel frame. The rest are all foundation less.
Jim Altmiller
Jim.
How many frames are in your double deep hive?
Bob,
It has eleven frames. Probably why it is growing so fast.
Jim Altmiller
Bob I did not watch the video, but Jeff Horchoff of "Jeff Horchoff Bees" put out a video 3 days ago titled: "Let's talk about the new Layens Hive and anything else."
https://www.youtube.com/live/TA0lfx2hF8s?feature=share
Jim.
An 11 double deep frame hive is only 22 worth of single deep frames. My long langs hold 30, and even that fills up too fast with nectar before it cures. I wonder if the depth will change that. I will be interested to hear how yours does, and Bill's too.
Phillip.
Thanks for the link. I watched part of the video but could not handle the rest. I like my videos instructive and to the point. When they waste video time starting at the house walking to the apiary, or say "Oh, look! There's my ducks", or talk about everything but the given titled subject, I lose patience. I keep rejecting these 45 minute videos with only 5 minutes of actual relative content.
I suppose they are life bloggers and not beekeeping instruction video makers.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on April 19, 2023, 11:06:29 PM
Phillip.
Thanks for the link. I watched part of the video but could not handle the rest. I like my videos instructive and to the point. When they
waste video time starting at the house walking to the apiary, or say "Oh, look! There's my ducks", or talk about everything but the given titled subject, I lose patience. I keep rejecting these 45 minute videos with only 5 minutes of actual relative content.
I suppose they are life bloggers and not beekeeping instruction video makers.
Oh man, I really struggle with that too. I can't stand to waste 20 minutes trying to sift through a video to get a question answered, when I could find the answer in 5 min. if I just had an article to skim.
Sorry Bob, i did not watch the video. I don?t blame you. I don?t like wasting time on something I?m not interesting in either. The title caught my eye.
Phillip
> if I just had an article to skim.
Yes! I can find nuggets in text in seconds...
Quote from: The15thMember on April 19, 2023, 11:11:06 PM
Quote from: Bob Wilson on April 19, 2023, 11:06:29 PM
Phillip.
Thanks for the link. I watched part of the video but could not handle the rest. I like my videos instructive and to the point. When they
waste video time starting at the house walking to the apiary, or say "Oh, look! There's my ducks", or talk about everything but the given titled subject, I lose patience. I keep rejecting these 45 minute videos with only 5 minutes of actual relative content.
I suppose they are life bloggers and not beekeeping instruction video makers.
Oh man, I really struggle with that too. I can't stand to waste 20 minutes trying to sift through a video to get a question answered, when I could find the answer in 5 min. if I just had an article to skim.
I just skimmed through the first 30 minutes or so of the transcript. He was doing a live video 'taking and answering' questions from viewers form different parts of the 'World' concerning this type hive.
'Boring to me as I don't have much interest in this type hive'. But might be interesting to those who are interested in this subject, appreciating beekeeper fellowship, along with an adequate amount of patience required for live videos. I listened to a few of 'Don The Fat Beeman' live streams when I first began beekeeping, (Don, by the way, is a member here.)
I am really liking this Layens.
It has 9 full frames and 3 half drawn frames of good, straight comb.
I am seriously considering building a 20-23 frame version, and getting rid of a couple of my long deep langstroths. This 14 frame Layens is actually too small.
1. I like the deeper frame.
2. They are putting larger honey bands across the top.
3. The frames have no open space between them, so any frames together seal the brood underneath.
4. They are 25% larger frames, so there is less to shift, and it's quicker to inspect. And yet, they are not unwieldy at all, like a double deep frames. They are more fun to inspect.
Ok quick update on the doubledeep. they have 9 out of 11 frames drawn. They are doing well, drew well and brooded up well for such a small swarm. They will not be supered this year, even though the bees seem to be doing well the frames are still to hard to deal with in my personal opinion. But who knows next spring I may change my mind. The one thing I do like about it it fits on standard equipment, meaning if I wanted to run a couple They fit on pallets, bottom boards, my supers fit etc..