In building a good population to coincide with a nectar flow, and preventing swarm control, do you beeks...
A: try more to time the population growth of a hive for the target day (HoneyPump calls it priming the pump)
B: or bust back the swarming impulse with splits and nuc making, then re-combine populations at the honey flow to create a few bigger hives for maximum honey production?
I'll start off by saying I've only been beekeeping for 3 years.
Also, we are experiencing an early spring.
With that said, I let the bees build up naturally unless I have a hive that is running behind the others. Two out of 8 this year are behind. One had a drone laying queen, and the other was low on food. Both of those were handled this week.
I also had 2 hives that were way ahead and not far from swarming. Both had 8 or 9 frames of brood in various stages and double deeps FULL of bees. I did walk away splits on both with 2 frames of mostly capped brood, 1 frame with eggs, and 2 of food to knock them back. I also added 2 extra shakes of bees. I have 2 nucs that are crammed now and will need to go into 10 frames in 2 weeks if it's warm enough, but they'll be able to stay warm if we have another cold snap and I've slowed the swarming tendency down a little.
The way those two are building up I'll probably have to split them again in a month. Next time I'll do a small split and take the queen to make them think they've swarmed, then go back in and remove all but 2 emergency cells in each.
Is this the right way? I don't know, but I'd rather slow them down and have bees in boxes than chasing swarms.
Quote from: NCNate on February 26, 2023, 10:27:47 AM
I don't know, but I'd rather slow them down and have bees in boxes than chasing swarms.
Clip your queens wings...no swarm chasing they all come home. Then manage as you need to.
Here's what I'm thinking about doing, and would like some feedback. I put supers on right at April 1. So I want foragers aplenty just then, for three months, then whatever.
A worker is capped about 12 days, goes foraging about 42 days after egg is laid. (Right? Ish?) So April 1 minus thirty days, I want all the capped brood I can find in the apiary into a single ten-frame box.
Then on the production hive, pull the queen into a nuc at the same time I add a whole box of brood on that T - 30. So for that month they'll have not much to do except raise a queen and backfill all the cells that are recently emerged with nectar.
When April 1 comes along I should have > a fresh queen just started to lay; > a hive heavy with nectar needing a place to go; > a fresh pretty empty super of combs and blanks just waiting to store all that nectar that needs to be moved up for the new queen to use the cells, as well as whatever the surge of foragers are bringing in.
?? What do you think?
(Oh, wait. That's THIS WEEK! Aaah!)
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Matt. I thought the goal was to build up the hive, then pull the queen JUST at the opening of the honey flow.
Wouldn't that mean the next month or so of heavy nectar flow, with no hungry brood while a new queen is made, and a full hive of bees with nothing to do but bring in nectar?
NCNate.
I think you are right. That's the way I am doing mine.
I might do an experiment with mine. I might try both ways. 1. Managing hive strength to time with the arrival of our main nectar flow, and 2. Knock back other hives more severely by pulling frames to make nuc colonies, to ensure no swarming, then re-combine to make big hives at the honey flow.
My goal is to keep them from swarming while letting them build up. If that fails, then I split. Most of this is timing. In the spring they go into full brood rearing mode in order to peak the population in time to swarm. They usually swarm about two weeks before the flow (a bell curve of course with outliers). My goal is to postpone them swarming until the main flow. I can usually get those two weeks. But if I do anything to try to speed this up the population is likely to peak too early and then I have to split them or they will swarm. Not ideal in my experience. If you can postpone swarming until the main flow, they usually won't swarm during the flow unless you let them run out of room.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on February 26, 2023, 11:03:02 PM
Matt. I thought the goal was to build up the hive, then pull the queen JUST at the opening of the honey flow.
Wouldn't that mean the next month or so of heavy nectar flow, with no hungry brood while a new queen is made, and a full hive of bees with nothing to do but bring in nectar?
Your suggested way might work even better; I keep supers on about three months; a later queen removal might give more brood for longer.
The ideal time to remove a queen for maximum honey, is two weeks before the flow.
Who of you use this practice? (removing queens for more honey production) Or have you in the past tried this method?
Quote from: Ben Framed on February 27, 2023, 01:25:15 PM
Who of you use this practice? (removing queens for more honey production) Or have you in the past tried this method?
I had it happen to me incidentally once, when I had a hive superseding while my sourwood flow was on. The hive put on a ton of honey. I've never done it on purpose though. I'd be interested to learn more about it because my big flow coincides with the time of year when the mites start to skyrocket right before fall and I sometimes need to treat, which is always a hassle, and if I could do a brood break then, it might be a good combination of arresting the mites and getting more honey.
When I do cut-down splits the old location is queenless and I always attempt to hit that "2 week before" mark.
I cant predict when a flow is 2 weeks away in my area so this is what I do for max production. Its a lot of lifting, but a lot of fun. I have Russian mutts and they will build very quickly so I put on 2 or 3 supers as soon as overnight temps begin to reach about 50F.
Once swarm season begins pull the frame with the queen on it and put her in a box with another frame of open brood. Fill the rest of the box with foundation or drawn comb. Put frames back in the box you pulled the queen from.
Put a queen excluder on and then the 2 or 3 supers you had on. Place another queen excluder on top of the supers. Then place the queen on top with another entrance, I have a 1" or 3/4" hole drilled in the box. Nurse bees will move up and the bees below will make another queen, continue to raise a swarm cell, or you can put a graft below.
Keep adding supers as needed and once the queen below starts to lay you can remove the queen on top and start a new colony.
Michael.
Why 2 weeks before?
I would think that waiting to remove the queen at the beginning of the flow would put off the new queen emerging and raising hungry brood.
Quote from: Bob Wilson on February 27, 2023, 09:29:53 PM
Michael.
Why 2 weeks before?
I would think that waiting to remove the queen at the beginning of the flow would put off the new queen emerging and raising hungry brood.
Im not Michael but I think I 'might' know,
(well at least in part). I think it is a safe assumption that we agree that Michael is an expert in such matters. I would like to take a guess anyway lol. My guess is it has something to do with feeding larva and brood when otherwise, excess resources could be used to go straight into honey production instead? If you time it just right, two weeks before the main flow, most of the brood should be hatched out, or emerged, leaving less emphasis on feeding, leaving excess nectar to go straight to honey production? Now Im guessing, I'm anxious to hear more from Michael and others who know the answer or answers to your question (and mine). :smile:
Phillip
Quote from: Ben Framed on February 27, 2023, 10:19:42 PM
Quote from: Bob Wilson on February 27, 2023, 09:29:53 PM
Michael.
Why 2 weeks before?
I would think that waiting to remove the queen at the beginning of the flow would put off the new queen emerging and raising hungry brood.
Im not Michael but I think I 'might' know, (well at least in part). I think it is a safe assumption that we agree that Michael is an expert in such matters. I would like to take a guess anyway lol. My guess is it has something to do with feeding larva and brood when otherwise, excess resources could be used to go straight into honey production instead? If you time it just right, two weeks before the main flow, most of the brood should be hatched out, or emerged, leaving less emphasis on feeding, leaving excess nectar to go straight to honey production? Now Im guessing, I'm anxious to hear more from Michael and others who know the answer or answers to your question (and mine). :smile:
Phillip
I believe you're right, that's my understanding of it as well, however inexperienced
Aaron
If you remove the queen two weeks before the flow it has several beneficial effects. First, it buys you that two weeks where they won't swarm because they are queenless. Second it's enough time for all of the capped brood to get capped (9 days https://bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm). Third it's enough time for the unemployed nurse bees to start getting recruited to forage. Things in a bee colony have momentum. Once they start recruiting nurse bees they will continue until the needs of the hive cause a change. Two weeks just works out to be just right for all those things to happen. It's the recruiting of the otherwise nurse bees that gives the colony a huge foraging force. By the time a new queen is raised and laying the old nurse bees are already recruited and will probably not revert back to nurse bees. But to be honest I got the number from the old comb honey producers who invented the cut down split.
The older nurse bee will have graduated to worker bees anyway, leaving the newly hatching bees to take their places as nurse bees with no brood to nurse, except keeping what is left of capped brood the right temperature.
How soon will the latest newly emerged bees convert to the work force, since their duties as nurse bees are no more?
I suppose its a win win. No more brood to feed and more bees to concentrate on forging thus more of the resources brought in to go to honey instead of brood.
Phillip
The two week of swarm control, and the conversion time of nurse bees to foragers. Thanks for those ideas.
We might consider a negative of the hive possibly becoming a laying worker hive before the flow is over?
What does a laying worker hive look like? - Honey Bee Suite
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/what-does-a-laying-worker-hive-look-like/#:~:text=Without%20going%20into%20detail%2C%20laying,%2C%20suppress%20the%20workers'%20ovaries.
"How long before a queenless hive becomes a laying worker?
Roughly 'three' weeks.
Laying workers begin to show up roughly three weeks after a colony has gone queenless. Pheromones from open brood, and to some extent from the queen herself, suppress the workers' ovaries."
>We might consider a negative of the hive possibly becoming a laying worker hive before the flow is over?
Like any walk away split or any emergency queen, they will not be broodless long enough. Queenlessness is not the cause of laying workers. Broodlessness is. You also get a brood break which helps with any brood disease as well as Varroa.
https://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm#pheromones
Quote from: Ben Framed on February 28, 2023, 03:40:25 PM
We might consider a negative of the hive possibly becoming a laying worker hive before the flow is over?
What does a laying worker hive look like? - Honey Bee Suite
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/what-does-a-laying-worker-hive-look-like/#:~:text=Without%20going%20into%20detail%2C%20laying,%2C%20suppress%20the%20workers'%20ovaries.
"How long before a queenless hive becomes a laying worker?
Roughly 'three' weeks.
Laying workers begin to show up roughly three weeks after a colony has gone queenless. Pheromones from open brood, and to some extent from the queen herself, suppress the workers' ovaries."
Quote
Michael Bush
Like any walk away split or any emergency queen, they will not be broodless long enough. Queenlessness is not the cause of laying workers. Broodlessness is. You also get a brood break which helps with any brood disease as well as Varroa.
Thanks for straightening that out Michael...
Phillip
New question, How long before a bloodless, queenless hive will become a laying worker hive?
Phillip
I don't think it's that simple. But 3 weeks broodless might be the minimum. Some are queenless for quite some time before they go laying worker. Besides that it is a matter of degree. Early stages of laying workers are hard to spot unless you have some experience with it. Running a couple of hundred mating nucs for the last few decades I've seen a lot of them. But early stages are easily fixed. Later stages are the problem. By then half the bees or more are laying workers.
Thank you for your answers to my questions Michael. The flow in my area goes longer than 3 weeks, I?m not sure how long a worker bee lives during the main flow. I?ve read different opinions. No doubt the force will be steadily dwindling, becoming smaller and smaller with each passing day. My concerns are I might run out of a good solid force of workers, or even wind up on the border line of a possible LW situation in my area before the flow is kaput . Though interesting, I am beginning to wonder if this method would be efficient for my location 🤷🏻♂️.
Phillip
The bees are just queenless long enough to raise their own queen. I has nothing to do with the length of the flow. The fact is that all those nurse bees that got recruited to forage are still foraging six weeks later.
I was not clear on how this works exactly. I was under the assumption that the queens were taken away and perhaps banked or set aside, allowing the same queens be later re-introduced or combined back to the hives 'after' the flow was past. After going back and rereading the entire thread I have been completely out int left field.. Thanks for your patience. Your revelation of allowing the bees to produce a new queen makes all my above questions mute.
From the outside looking in, I see no substantial advantage to this system, sort of like robbing Peter to pay Paul if we not only remove the queen but take away brood also as in a split which will reduce the needed workforce of this hive during the flow.
Phillip
No queen is confined at all. She is removed to a new colony
Details:
https://bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdown
Advantages:
1) the old colony will make more honey than it would have because it will have a larger field force and low overhead (no brood to take care of).
2) the new colony gives you increase. You now have another hive. i.e. you get more bees and more honey
3) the old colony gets a new young queen.
4) the old colony gets a brood break which is good for brood diseases and good for Varroa management.
5) the bees are crowded up into the supers, which helps production but especially helps with comb honey.
6) a high density of bees will produce more honey than the same number of bees with lower density. You get a high density of bees. High density of bees also helps with SHB, wax moths, Varroa, any brood disease etc.
7) bees focus on one main goal at a time and this forces them into moving into foraging (main flow) mode from build up mode. You cannot build up when you are queenless, so they go into foraging mode early and skip swarm mode.
This is a win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win situation. There is no tradeoff. You get more bees and more honey and healthier bees.
But you need to understand that timing is everything and this only works on a strong colony.
I am quite a ways north of most of you. Not sure about removing my queen on a good hive. My bees seem to want to start with a laying worker and I get more drones. You guys dont have this problem?
>You guys dont have this problem?
It's a good idea to check to make sure the new queen gets mated. If you raise some queens anyway you'll have some spares. Also, if you WANT to raise some queens, you can go into the old hive 9 days after the split and steal some queen cells and put them in some mating nucs (or use them to set up some). You don't need a lot of them for just insurance. One or two spares will be enough to ensure a new queen. Plus if they end up queenless, the old queen is still in the new colony, so you could always recombine them.
Back to the above discussion on field force:
Another thing to keep in mind, the old hive has all the capped brood and this will continue to emerge for another 12 days after the split, and the little open brood (there is always some), will continue to emerge for the next three weeks and all of these are available to the old hive for the six weeks after they emerge.
Quote from: Michael Bush on March 01, 2023, 09:57:47 AM
No queen is confined at all. She is removed to a new colony
Details:
https://bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdown
Advantages:
1) the old colony will make more honey than it would have because it will have a larger field force and low overhead (no brood to take care of).
2) the new colony gives you increase. You now have another hive. i.e. you get more bees and more honey
3) the old colony gets a new young queen.
4) the old colony gets a brood break which is good for brood diseases and good for Varroa management.
5) the bees are crowded up into the supers, which helps production but especially helps with comb honey.
6) a high density of bees will produce more honey than the same number of bees with lower density. You get a high density of bees. High density of bees also helps with SHB, wax moths, Varroa, any brood disease etc.
7) bees focus on one main goal at a time and this forces them into moving into foraging (main flow) mode from build up mode. You cannot build up when you are queenless, so they go into foraging mode early and skip swarm mode.
This is a win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win situation. There is no tradeoff. You get more bees and more honey and healthier bees.
But you need to understand that timing is everything and this only works on a strong colony.
Thanks, I 'now' finally see you point concerning the benefit of maximum honey production. I had to go back and look closely to make sure your were taking about moving the queen only leaving all resources, as similar to Reagans' supersedure case. I was slow on this one. lol
Actually I leave no stores for the old hive. The stores all go to the new hive which is not expected to make a honey crop The old hive only has whatever might be on the capped brood combs. The old hive gets all the mostly capped combs. Anything else is incidental just to finish filling a box.
Quote from: Michael Bush on March 02, 2023, 08:06:16 AM
Actually I leave no stores for the old hive. The stores all go to the new hive which is not expected to make a honey crop The old hive only has whatever might be on the capped brood combs. The old hive gets all the mostly capped combs. Anything else is incidental just to finish filling a box.
Under normal circumstances the newly 'hatched or emerged'
(I hear it both ways), clean cells for the first couple of days. From age 3 to 11, they babysit the larvae, age 12 to 17 days, they build cells and store nectar and pollen. From 18 to 21 days, they guard the hive. And at 22 to 42 days (which is usually the end of their life), they forage.
Under these very unusual set of circumstances, when do newly emerged bees 'actually' 'begin' forging?
Quote from: Ben Framed on March 02, 2023, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on March 02, 2023, 08:06:16 AM
Actually I leave no stores for the old hive. The stores all go to the new hive which is not expected to make a honey crop The old hive only has whatever might be on the capped brood combs. The old hive gets all the mostly capped combs. Anything else is incidental just to finish filling a box.
Under normal circumstances the newly 'hatched or emerged' (I hear it both ways), clean cells for the first couple of days. From age 3 to 11, they babysit the larvae, age 12 to 17 days, they build cells and store nectar and pollen. From 18 to 21 days, they guard the hive. And at 22 to 42 days (which is usually the end of their life), they forage.
Under these very unusual set of circumstances, when do newly emerged bees 'actually' 'begin' forging?
My understanding is that in a broodless or only capped brood colony, the new bees would skip the babysitting nurse bee stage and would move right into building and storing duties. Obviously all those numbers are averages, and the ages vary greatly colony to colony and bee to bee, but essentially it bumps their first foraging flight up by about a week. And of course if there is an excess of bees doing one job, which there probably will be in this scenario, then everyone will move through the job stages faster. So if you have all the bees aging into building and storage, but there is a surplus of this age bee, some of them will go right to guard duty, which will free up guard bees to start foraging early than would be normal. So on the whole, most of the bees are on a faster track to forager than in a brooding colony.
>Under these very unusual set of circumstances, when do newly emerged bees 'actually' 'begin' forging?
Probably 10 days... as soon as they can fly. As Jay Smith said, "When ten days old it can do anything required."
Thank you both.
Phillip
Quote from: beehappy1950 on March 01, 2023, 01:27:29 PM
I am quite a ways north of most of you. Not sure about removing my queen on a good hive. My bees seem to want to start with a laying worker and I get more drones. You guys dont have this problem?
This was 'one' of my original concerns considering this system. I suppose this system has been tried and tested, but I am still finding it hard to bite the hook lol.... I do appreciate the patience Michale Bush and the rest of you have had with my questions on this topic,
(Bob Wilsons' topic). Thank you Bob.
Phillip
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-make-a-cut-down-split-2/
comb honey production - honey bee management - how to - making increase - queen rearing
How to make a cut-down split
by Rusty Burlew 2 years ago
A cut-down split is a special technique often used by comb honey producers. The purpose of a cut-down split is to maximize the number of foragers that are bringing in nectar by minimizing the amount of brood a colony has to care for.
With little brood to feed, foragers concentrate on bringing home nectar rather than pollen, and nurse bees without brood responsibility soon become foragers as well. The result is lots of honey in a short period of time.
Timing of a cut-down split it important. To be effective, the cut-down should be completed just before the start of a main nectar flow. No matter how well you organize the split, it won't produce more honey if there is no nectar to collect.
To make a cut-down split:
Find the queen.
Place the queen and nearly all the open brood, honey, and pollen in a new hive. Make sure these frames are covered with nurse bees to care for the open brood.
Leave the capped brood, one frame of eggs, and a small amount of honey and pollen in the old hive. At the same time reduce the number of brood boxes in this old hive by one and add empty honey supers. (So if there were three brood boxes, cut back to two. If there were two brood boxes, cut back to one. Add supers after cutting back the brood boxes.)
Place the new hive in a different location so all of the foragers return to the old hive.
I know this is confusing, so try this:
[attachment=0][/attachment]
After you are set up, this is what happens:
The old hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a queen or young brood. The colony will raise a new queen from the eggs, but by the time the colony is strong, swarm season will be mostly over.
o This old hive has many more foragers and nurses than are needed to care for the one frame of eggs. In addition, all the capped brood will soon hatch and replace the nurse bees.
o Because the hive is now crowded (due to the reduced number of brood boxes) many of the newly hatched nurse bees will move into the supers and start building comb-even in comb honey supers.
o The old nurse bees will also become foragers, but since there is little brood to care for, pollen needs will be low. So the huge crop of foragers will collect nectar like crazy and make a lot of honey in a very short time-which they will store in the newly built comb.
The new hive won't swarm because there are no foragers. It will take several weeks to build up a foraging force.
Rusty
HoneyBeeSuite
comb honey cut-down split making increase splits
Quote from: Ben Framed on February 28, 2023, 04:51:56 PM
Though interesting, I am beginning to wonder if this method would be efficient for my location 🤷🏻♂️.
Thats my biggest issue. I had mixed results with cut downs or removing the queen, especially with only 20 or 30 hives. If my little apiary was next to 100 acres of canola it would be another story. Timing is almost impossible in my area, if I pull the queen and I missed the flow by a week followed by a week of rain colonies may struggle so that when a flow does start they wont produce as much if I hadn't cut them down . Another issue is queenless foragers tend to drift to queen rite colonies.
Run 2 colonies side by side. One with a cut down (or queen removed) and the other with the queen placed on top of the supers letting the hive below raise a queen. I would bet my honey on which one will produce better for you :)
I may have to try this here in Minnesota. Sounds good. I may be able to depend on the basswood flow if the thrips dont get them like last year.
Bob, feel free to revise and plagiarize the PMs of how to prime the honey pump.
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Quote from: beesnweeds on March 03, 2023, 06:15:36 PM
Thats my biggest issue. I had mixed results with cut downs or removing the queen, especially with only 20 or 30 hives.
All I ever did is walk away splits in Utica, NY with the goal to maintain 3 hives. Utica is just south of the Adirondack park. Now if you are in the Adirondack park that is a different story because there is not much to forage on after the trees bloom. This is another reason of how important location is.
I dare you to take a booming hive, separate out all of the mostly capped brood and not have any eggs and young brood in that capped brood. If you can, then the hive is far to weak to be doing a cut down split. No point in purposely putting a frame of eggs in the old hive.
If I pull a nuc WITH the old queen out of a strong hive with queen cells, can/will the queenless hive still swarm when a virgin emerges?
If you didnt remove enough resources they might. Doubtful if you took five frames out of them and the old queen. But not impossible. Put the new frames in the brood nest to stack the deck in your favor.
A shout out to all that contributed, this was a good thread with a lot of good information in it.