I'm going with two deeps for my brood boxes but I have a question about their population. Why does it stop at two deeps or three mediums? Does the population reach a dynamic equilibrium with that space or what? Is it possible to have more than those normal number of boxes?
it is, but where you live may limit their growth. It's probably not desirable. It makes inspections really hard when you start stacking up the deeps. When you get to that point, splitting is usually the way to go. Increase your hives and decrease your lifting! :grin:
Sometimes in a bumper crop flow the number of supers can grow out of control, but as soon as the flow is over the population tends to drop back quickly. There does seem to be an upward limit as to how many bees they will raise.
The brood nest can absolutely get larger than that, but in my experience in my climate, most of my hives have 3 mediums of brood, plus whatever supers are needed for the current flow. The thing that limits their growth is just the yearly cycle. In climates with a winter at least, colonies will increase in population until the summer solstice, at which point they will start to contract and prep for winter.
Some successful and profitable apiaries use the single hive body management strategy.
Dr. Thomas Seely recommends it but he also promotes swarming to control mites and taking not more than 20% for a harvest. That would be one deep for the brood and a shallow for the super.
Quote from: FatherMichael on May 14, 2024, 01:05:04 PM
Some successful and profitable apiaries use the single hive body management strategy.
Dr. Thomas Seely recommends it but he also promotes swarming to control mites and taking not more than 20% for a harvest. That would be one deep for the brood and a shallow for the super.
This sounds interesting but how well would a single deep colony survive a winter in the NE?
I should probably clarify that my colonies have 3-4 mediums of brood at maximum, but I do have a broodless period in winter and get all my colonies down to two boxes. I don't have experience with NE winters as a beekeeper, but I wouldn't be surprised if a single deep colony wintered well. Maybe a deep and a super, I'm not sure how much honey is recommended in your area. I doubt a winter cluster, just considering bee bodies, takes up more room than a 10 frame deep. Dr. Seeley is in upstate NY, so his climate would be similar to PA.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on May 14, 2024, 02:19:54 PM
Quote from: FatherMichael on May 14, 2024, 01:05:04 PM
Some successful and profitable apiaries use the single hive body management strategy.
Dr. Thomas Seely recommends it but he also promotes swarming to control mites and taking not more than 20% for a harvest. That would be one deep for the brood and a shallow for the super.
This sounds interesting but how well would a single deep colony survive a winter in the NE?
The videos I've watched are by Canadian beekeepers and Dr. Seely did his studies in Upstate New York.
Here's one about preparing a single brood box for winter in Ontario:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfO9DTl6SJc
Everywhere in Upstate, NY is harsher than I am but depending on where in Upstate, NY, it can be really harsh. Thanks for that video, FatherMichael, it was interesting and gives me more to think about.
Another question that is coming to mind is my entrance. I have the large entrance open because the small one was obviously too small early on but now I'm seeing a little bit of congestion with the large entrance. The bees won't land on the other end of the board and walk in, they'll land on the weeds out front or the concrete and they are kind of jockeying for a landing spot and struggling to get in. I'm OCD on efficiency and think it's more important than working hard so I want to streamline their path back into the hive. Should I make another entrance blocker with a second entrance on the other end or should I just remove the entrance reducer altogether? I'm leaning more towards a second entrance so they don't have to defend the whole front end.
If they seem congested, there is nothing wrong with opening the entrance up more, however you choose to do so. Just keep in mind that some congestion helps to prevent robbers and other intruders, so I wouldn't recommend opening them up all the way, at least not yet. A standard entrance reducer usually has a 1 in. opening and a 4 in. opening, if that helps you.
That's about what mine has now and opening up all the way does sound risky. I see what I come up with.
Terri, Devan Rawn has a good video explaining how and why he winters single deeps. He is in Canada. A real nice fellow who is always willing to help
Phillip
https://youtu.be/YjyNcyVvbEI?si=2mhX7N7pLUFk6uiO
Hi Terri,
As others have said, the brood nest can get quite large in some colonies but it will vary from hive to hive. I generally don?t run queen excluders so at times, some of my hives turn into monsters. It makes checking of brood a slow and painful exercise. With varroa now an issue in Australia, I will have to change this method. From next season I will run single deep brood boxes with a queen excluder in order to control the mite. It will help to keep treatment costs down and also give me better control of frames in relation to chemical buildup and residue. The size of a hive is also determined by the local environment. If good supplies of pollen and nectar are coming in, the hive will grow. Reagan?s comment about the summer solstice is a good, general guide to follow in relation to hive growth. In most years, this is the case but if good supplies are coming in, the colony will maintain higher numbers of bees until food starts to diminish. I can have big, strong hives throughout winter if there is a honey flow on. A lot depends on your local climatic conditions and the approach can vary according to this. After a few seasons, you will adjust, modify and improve your techniques to suit your area and give the bees the best chance of survival. Contacting local beekeepers in your area would be a good starting point.
I had the pleasure of meeting Paul Kelly from the University of Guelph this spring, great guy and beekeeper! He manages all his colonies in a single deep. Personally, Ive overwintered in all kinds of configurations. It all depends on how you want to manage your bees. The older I get the more attractive single deeps and nucs get. All my entrances are wide open like in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_oYsyB1PvM
One thing I forgot to mention. Notice in the video Paul cuts all the landing boards off his hives. It's easier to stack and store equipment and a landing board is unnecessary.
>Notice in the video Paul cuts all the landing boards off his hives. It's easier to stack and store equipment and a landing board is unnecessary.
A man after my own heart.
Quote from: Ben Framed on May 14, 2024, 05:54:51 PM
Terri, Devan Rawn has a good video explaining how and why he winters single deeps. He is in Canada. A real nice fellow who is always willing to help
Phillip
https://youtu.be/YjyNcyVvbEI?si=2mhX7N7pLUFk6uiO
And another good video, thanks. I like the way he did the math and explained everything and like I said previously, I like efficiency. I was also impressed with how he could hold the queen and move that frame around without squeezing her too hard. So now for my next question(s)...I want to have two hives before I go into winter and am hoping to catch a swarm. Absent the catching of a swarm, I'll want to get another hive going one way or another. The colony that I have seems to be doing well (for all I know anyhow) and after watching that, I'm wondering...Can I just split this colony? I'll inspect it again tomorrow as it's the best weather day we have in sight. If I find plenty of brood and stores in both boxes, can I just pull the top box off and let the queenless one requeen? I'll video the job and maybe decide what do do afterwards?
You are very welcome Terri. He is quite efficient Terri and a good communicator as well. He has other videos that are VERY informative as well.
Yes you can split if you wish.
You can split, but realize that it will set both colonies back, so you may have to continue to baby the two colonies longer than you otherwise would have the one colony. You will definitely want to inspect before doing so, because the contents of that second box will determine whether or not the job can be as simple as just separating the two boxes. I might be inclined to do a little more strategic of a split given that the colony is already behind, just because it's only their first year.
Reagan gave a very good answer which will help you realize available options. Do you want honey this season or is your goal primarily building up bees? You can have both if you choose to wait and split late summer or Fall. Of course you will need to help the split out as late summer is usually dearth time and the Fall flow is not as strong as the Spring (speaking of my location). You will need to feed the late split with pollen sub as well.
Being this is your first bees in your first season, you are taking in a large amount of information. You may or may not know that bees have to have both pollen and nectar (or sugar water) to thrive. If you feed both, even in dearth, they will thrive, which has been my experience. And prosper is exactly what you will need before Winter arrives.
For example:
My very first season , this is exactly what I did. I let my hive build up the whole season until late and then split the >strong hive<, making 5 nucs. (Though this was not my plan, another story), I ordered 4 MATED queens and this was during VERY late Fall when I did so! I am happy to tell you, that by following David?s instructions (from barnyard bees), all five not only made it through the winter, ( The one with the original queen as well as the 4 with purchased queens), but came out full speed ahead the following Spring. . It was a fun project! . And remember these are just a couple ideas, there are several ways to make successful splits! Best of luck what ever you decide!
Phillip
I'd like to hear more about the strategic part of it. I guess that first I should determine at what point do I draw the line as too late to do so. I'm thinking that a couple more frame manipulations would be in order to help fill them out and make a split when resources are high for both boxes. One box being a medium would have to be taken into account in the event of an uneven distribution of resources between the boxes. Deep frames just will not fit into a medium. I do have more deep boxes but I question whether the excess space of mediums in a deep would be a good move. And again, ultimately, I'd like to score a swarm and this would be a possible plan 'B', if it's feasible. And I almost forgot, I did pick up a five frame deep box nuc that I could throw together and use, if that would be a better option. I could grab five good deep frames and toss them into the nuc and replace them with new frames.
There are so, so many ways to make a split, depending on the time of year, the goal of the split, and the equipment you have at your disposal. I'm bad with the terminology surrounding different types of splits, because there are just so many ways to do it, and I prefer to just think through the process logically each time. The thing to ask yourself when you split a hive is this: what is each half now lacking, and how do I make sure they can manage well until they have it again?
Here is what I typically do, but again, there are 100 ways to skin this cat. When I split for increase, I try to mimic a swarm, so I'll move the frame with the queen into the new hive. I make sure there are drawn blanks for her to lay in, some capped brood, and plenty of stores, because this side of the split will be lacking foragers, and therefore won't have food coming in until the bees that emerge in the new hive begin foraging (which they will do early, in the absence of older bees). All the current flying bees that I have incidentally moved are oriented to the original colony's location, and when they leave the new hive to go forage, they will return back to the old hive.
In the original location, they are now lacking a queen, so in order to make one they will need frames with eggs and also plenty of nurse bees, so I ensure the original colony also has capped brood, since nursing is the job of the young bees. If I'm expecting a big flow, I'll also be sure the original colony has the supers they need, because I don't want to disturb that colony until the new queen has mated.
In your case, Terri, the question is going to be if the hive is really big enough to split down the middle yet. If not, making a nuc off of the hive may be better, but that nuc will have gotten a very late start. Or, you could do something like Phillip described, and wait and make a nuc off your hive later in the season, if you don't catch a swarm. You will then have to overwinter that nuc, but one strong colony and one nuc might be preferable to 2 weaker colonies going into winter. It's just a matter of preference and proper timing in your situation.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on May 15, 2024, 08:41:14 AM
Can I just split this colony?
At the end of the day there's only 2 ways to make a split. You can purchase a queen or allow the split to make its own which in your case will be an emergency queen. When I make splits, they either have charged swarm cells, or I have mated queens ready. Emergency queens can sometimes be poor quality. If you make the split now it will be around 30 days until the new queen is laying and another 12 days for bees the best age to produce wax. You might be able to pull it off but once August comes around wax production gets harder. Honestly you should focus on getting your new hive strong for winter and learn about mite/honeybee life cycle and biology. Your bees could produce honey this year and make splits next year.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54632.msg497529#msg497529
Good discussion in that thread, Ben. Thanks. For now, I'll concentrate on getting the hive strong, try to catch a swarm and if and when I have a lot of brood, I'll consider it.
👍🏻
My swarm hive is hardly flying today for some reason. It's in the 70s and partly sunny. I think I heard the queen in there piping. Are these symptoms of anything?
Generally virgins will pipe; it's the challenge call for any other queens to come and fight her for supremacy. How sure are you that you saw brood in there? I remember you were having trouble seeing eggs, but did you see any larvae? Keep in mind that this colony is about 1/4 of the size of your other one, so don't be surprised if the traffic is about 1/4 that of the other hive.
Quote from: The15thMember on May 28, 2024, 07:05:10 PM
Generally virgins will pipe; it's the challenge call for any other queens to come and fight her for supremacy. How sure are you that you saw brood in there? I remember you were having trouble seeing eggs, but did you see any larvae? Keep in mind that this colony is about 1/4 of the size of your other one, so don't be surprised if the traffic is about 1/4 that of the other hive.
I couldn't confirm any larvae but I believe I saw some eggs and no capped brood. But they had only been here for a week. They have a good pile of stores but I don't know how much of that they brought with them. And I watched them a little today and they are bringing in pollen and now that you mention it, yes, I was comparing them with my other hive, which is much bigger. When they all come in without pollen, are they toting nectar instead?
Next time you check, take your phone and get pictures of the cells. Then you can look on your computer and you'll be able to see better what's in there.
Provided they found some nectar, yes. They could of course be coming home empty and it would be difficult to tell, but if there are things blooming and there is good traffic, it's a safe bet they have loaded honey crops. Another indicator is that bees who are carrying heavy loads will often kind of slam down on the landing board, because their trajectory is a little off from the weight.
Pictures with phone is a good tip, will do, thanks. I'll watch for landing trajectories and see what they look like.
How to do splits:
https://bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm
Hive inspections tomorrow and I have a question or two...should I install an inner cover with an entrance in it, facing upwards for ventilation? We have hot weather coming in for the end of the week. The nuc already has a top entrance, which they seem to like better than the one on the bottom. Should I flip it upwards to force the air up through the middle of that hive too?
I think you should feel free to experiment with ventilation and entrances and see what works for you and your bees. Just keep in mind that the bees' ability to cool themselves will be inhibited by too much ventilation just as much as not enough. It's a balance that you'll need to strike for your particular location.
Quote from: The15thMember on June 09, 2024, 11:08:46 PM
I think you should feel free to experiment with ventilation and entrances and see what works for you and your bees. Just keep in mind that the bees' ability to cool themselves will be inhibited by too much ventilation just as much as not enough. It's a balance that you'll need to strike for your particular location.
Hmmm...and why is that? We are forecast to get to 97 on Thursday and my hives get full sun from mid morning until late afternoon and I am worried that they will overheat without some air flow. Am I mistaken?
Bees lower the temperature in a hive very much in the same way an air conditioner works. They paint water on the combs with their tongues and then fan to evaporate it. The bees will set up fanning lines to move the air all the way out the nearest entrance. So they need enough ventilation to be able to vent that moist air, but they also need to be able to control that venting process. If there is too much ventilation, it's essentially the same as running the A/C with the windows open, where more hot air is entering the space than the bees have the ability to cool and evacuate.
I am a firm believer in solid bottom and no upper vent. I do use slatted racks though. I admit to never trying screen bottom cause it does not make sense to me but many love them. Now when I say no upper vent, I am a poor carpenter and boards warp and bees chew and so I have lots of places besides the bottom in the end. Solid bottom and no upper just makes sense to me for the very reason of the thing that The15thmember just explained. It just seems like it would give the bees more over all control.
Just as other considerations in beekeeping practices; Location may play an important part in the use and options of ventilation.
About a month ago few of us discussed ventilation within another topic; where the topic shifted to ventilation after Member shared her problem of her bees not capping honey in a satisfactory time frame.
I relayed Tim Durhams opinion concerning ventilation. I
think I included that Tim also kept bees in North Carolina for a period of his life. Members State.
You might glance back and see if that discussion will help broaden your opinions and options Terri, beginning with reply# 11.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=57383.msg530132#msg530132
Thanks Ben, some good points are made there.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on June 10, 2024, 10:19:17 AM
Thanks Ben, some good points are made there.
I'm still learning too Terri. I try to keep an open mind in 'any' bee discussion, especially when I hear a relevant 'sounding' practice.
I try to 'listen intently' to 'each' post, and decide if 'this or that' recommendation is something 'that I should consider doing' for my bees as well, "in my location". Or "is this something I have tried and it failed to work for my bees?" In the good discussion, I may learn 'why' I failed, or perhaps that others have tried what I have tried, and succeeded; Or find that others also succeeded but with better results. "always trying to remember to keep 'location' in mind if location is possibly relevant.
For example, on the other topic I posted of a local beekeeper, 'local to me', "Tim Durham", of how he vents his hives. This same beekeeper once lived in the same state as The15Member, Iddee and some other top beekeepers of that State which are posting members here of whom I have great respect. That method of Tims' practice does not mean that Tim used the same practice of ventilating his hive then, in (NC) as he does in his present location, (Ms). He may very well have done something different in 'that' location. I have not asked but the next time he puts out a video, I will try to make it a point to ask.
Most who post here ask questions as well as give their valuable opinions. Especially those opinions which come from ones' 'very own' experiences. Or; freely name the source where those opinions come from, especially if asked. Together, 'we' learn and I for one am still learning. My thanks go out to you all..
Phillip
When I was in the panhandle of Nebraska condensation was never a problem in winter. It was very dry there. In Eastern Nebraska it is an issue.
My hives are not bringing in any pollen, is that something I should be concerned with? When I made the split, the hive only had two frames partially filled with pollen in it and I stole one for the nuc.
The bees will shrink the brood nest to account for the lack of pollen. Without brood, adult bees don't need really any protein. The hive may stop expanding for the time being, but honestly, colony contraction will begin after the solstice anyway, so your big hive probably isn't going to get too much bigger at this point anyway population-wise. It's really a question of your blooms. We are in the summer nectar dearth here, although I have pollen coming in still. It's possible though that in your area there isn't much pollen this time of year, and that's just part of your seasonal rhythms.
I dont want to make this complicated, and didnt read through the full post BUT.
1) Were there enough bees to split? (dependent on how you did the split)
2) Is the split you made in the place of the original hive?
3) If not you need to put at least one food frame (maybe 2, dependent) Because the new bees/house bees wont just go out foraging)
4) Do you have enough bees/feed to facilitate them raising brood?
5) Do they have to much room for the box they are in?
If you removed a pile of nurse bees and installed a mated queen, and your slit is not where the original hive was, then you must make sure you give them pollen and nectar.
If same split is where original was the field bees will bring it in, assuming it is coming in.
Dont make the split complicated, Enough Pollen, nectar, the right age brood, and enough nurse bees to feed/ raise a queen, (If thats what your shooting for), with as little area to defend, for the amount of bees.
Or if you went another rout, QC, mated, enough nurse bees to take care of the brood plus Feed.
But if you leave the split in the place of original, think reverse.
If you make it when the foragers are home and move it somewhere (another yard they will re orientate. If you leave it in the same yard put something in front of the hive to MAKE them re-orientate.
Hope this wasnt to bad.
I found a capped queen cell in a medium brood box that I had moved above a queen excluder and added a deep box below them. It was suggested and I liked the idea of splitting it and having an extra queen in a nuc. Whether or not I moved enough bees over remains to be seen and I honestly don't know if there were enough or not. I may look in in a week just to see how things look. I know that I did not move enough to damage the first hive and I may well not succeed at this experiment but if I monitor it closely, I should be able to minimize any losses.
Bill, he just took a frame with a capped QC, a frame of pollen, a frame of honey, and 2 frames of capped brood and made up a nuc. He was just looking for something to do with the QC. Sorry, Terri, I posted overtop of you.
Quote from: The15thMember on June 11, 2024, 09:34:52 PM
Bill, he just took a frame with a capped QC, a frame of pollen, a frame of honey, and 2 frames of capped brood and made up a nuc. He was just looking for something to do with the QC. Sorry, Terri, I posted overtop of you.
That's nothing to be sorry about and I think your explanation is clearer than mine.
Well in that case, they probably wont be bringing in pollen, dont worry about anything until hatch,mate lay. Sorry probably should have read the whole post, Ive been super busy 400 new deeps, learning the engraver gadget, making lids. Thanks member. Terri keep carrying on sounds like you doing well. File all that stuff, might come in handy some day.
My mentor has mentioned something about pulling one frame out of a honey super so they build the comb out farther, which makes it easier to decap. Is that a good idea or not?
>My mentor has mentioned something about pulling one frame out of a honey super so they build the comb out farther, which makes it easier to decap. Is that a good idea or not?
As long as you have drawn comb it works fine. It's not necessary, but it doesn't hurt.
AS Michael mentioned, as long as drawn running 9 frames in the honey is good option. I run 8 in them and have yet to see a downside
Can they be spread apart after they're capped? Would they add onto what's there?
You spread them when they are drawn (usually because they were extracted last year) and before they are capped. After they are capped, I would not do it. No telling how that will end up.
OK, thanks. Since mine are still bare, it's not to be tried yet.
I do crush and strain, so uncapping isn't a factor for me, but I also run 7 frames in an 8 frame super sometimes, especially in colonies that seem to have a propensity to draw their honeycomb deeper and therefore fatter. I've even done 7 frames by checkerboarding blanks and drawn blanks, but that does sometimes end up a mess. It's not a big deal for me, since I'm crushing up all the comb to harvest, but it would be a problem in an extractor. I just space the frames by hand, I don't use a spacer or anything, and it usually works very well.
Wouldn?t this work just fine if you used wax foundation?
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 14, 2024, 02:30:59 PM
Wouldn?t this work just fine if you used wax foundation?
Maybe but I'm a lazy dude and plastic foundation is the lazy way to go. :cheesy:
Yes its fine with plastic foundation but it must be drawn out the year before or you get a mess.
year 1 fresh waxed blanks. drawn and capped.
year 2 space to 9 or 8 frame if running 10s. 7 or 6 if running 8s
Quote from: Terri Yaki on June 14, 2024, 03:04:56 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on June 14, 2024, 02:30:59 PM
Wouldn?t this work just fine if you used wax foundation?
Maybe but I'm a lazy dude and plastic foundation is the lazy way to go. :cheesy:
Terri; I wasnt clear. I was responding to Michael and Bill which said this would work as long as drawn comb was used. While The15 said she uses crush and strain so it would not matter in her case as far as drawn comb was concerned. So I ask the question of using wax foundation, which should cover both concerns in reference to their good input Meaning you might not have to use drawn comb with wax foundation? And you can still crush and strain if this is your method of retrieving honey. 🤷🏻♂️
Phillip
What to do? I was going to inspect my hives tomorrow, which would be seven days since last inspection. We have good weather here today but it ends here for about a week and we're looking at a run of 90 degree days with the next predicted break on Tuesday, a week out. I'm leaning towards stepping this inspection up a day, what do yous think?
I don't think it matters much either way. If you'd like to move it up a day, it won't hurt anything. I'm assuming you are starting to exit swarm season, so it's unlikely waiting two weeks would do any harm either.
If the 90 degree weather is your concern it really only matters for your comfort, or won't affect the bees
Quote from: Occam on June 16, 2024, 05:10:44 PM
If the 90 degree weather is your concern it really only matters for your comfort, or won't affect the bees
Yeah, I kind of sweat in that jacket at 70 degrees. At 90 and up, I'd really be soaking wet.
Oh I'm sure. I've worn a jacket exactly 2x and only one was in my own bee yard. I just can't make myself wear one. I wear a veil to keep my face from getting dying but otherwise it's generally shorts, t shirt, and flip flops with the suit on hand if it becomes necessary.
I was in my full vented suit with just a sports bra and gym shorts underneath on Saturday in 83F, so I can confirm that it's a surefire way to get drenched in sweat. :grin:
> Yeah, I kind of sweat in that jacket at 70 degrees. At 90 and up, I'd really be soaking wet.
If its a 3 layer breathable air flow type jacket simply wear a dry fit t-shirt or non at all beneath the jacket and bring along a fan... With the breathable jackets and a fan, its like Aladdin sang to the Princess, its a whole new world....
Phillip
I do have a shop fan that I intend to use, maybe I should just do it.
Yesterday was one of the hottest days of the year and the bees' behavior indicates that it was THE hottest. Hive #1 (the nuc I bought in April) has had the entrance reducer removed and no vent of any sort up top. It's four boxes tall, two deep and two mediums. This crowd had the porch covered with fanners yesterday and did no bearding. This morning they are running something but it's not pollen and they don't look to be landing heavy.
Hive #2 (my swarm trap hive) is still in a single deep but I have an empty deep on top as I have been feeding them syrup: 1) They still have comb to build and 2) I'm thinking that if they're storing it, they can use it during the dearth. This hive has two entrances, a small one on the porch and a medium one that I cut into the inner cover. It currently points downward and is the one they use the most. They were bearding yesterday during the day but when the sun went behind the trees, they quit that. They are bringing in some pollen today and others are flying but I don't know what they're carrying but it's not in their pollen baskets. They're pretty good at sticking the landing right on that top opening.
Hive #3 (the nuc I split off) has just a small opening on the porch but I shimmed the top with one of my hive tools. They were out bearding yesterday and this was the first day they were outside in any numbers. They also had some fanners at the opening but the opening is really small, like 1" to 1 1/4" wide. Today some of them are out making orientation flights for the first time.
So...my question is, what is recommended for the entrances with this heat wave coming in? We're looking at highs in the 90s for at least a week, which is about as bad as it gets here. Should I switch to the larger entrance on the porch of the trapped swarm? Should I enlarge the opening for the nuc I split? I don't see any reason to change anything with Hive #1 because they seem to be doing just fine.
If it's hot, the foragers are probably bringing in water, both for drinking and for cooling. I agree that hives that are bearding are too hot and need more ventilation. I think both the swarm hive and the nuc should have their entrances opened more. With the nuc, I would keep an eye out for robbing if your flow isn't strong right now, and reduce their entrance again once it cools down.
Since heat rises, bees have to work extra hard to bring that heat and saunafied moisture down to the entrance in a bottom entrance hive to release it while generating heat themselves while doing so. . A little top ventilation will absolutely help in more ways than one. This has been discussed time and again with examples. I suggest you experiment for yourself and learn for yourself. Experience is the best teacher in many cases.
Phillip,
I don?t know if you remember but many years ago Little John went into a long explanation that when water is evaporated the first thing that it does is sink which is what the bees use to get heat out of a hive. A lot of members could not understand this and argued to the point that LJ stopped posting.
Jim Altmiller
I was curious about what Jim said, so I went and found the post he's referring to, if anyone else would like to read it.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51383.msg454259#msg454259
No Jim, sorry, I do not remember. I have made it a point to read many of LJs post in the archives and have great respect for his writings and teaching, which I feel certain, many of which are based on his very own personal experiences for his particular location.
I for one have the same desire to learn as well, and in many cases when two or more beekeepers, which I have the upmost respect for, have a different view of opinion on the same subject matter, I have done exactly the same as LJ, learned from experience by experimentation. I have consider the advise of my friends here and put each to the test for my location.
There is never a need for a beekeeping discussion to reach the point of argumentation .. Nor is there any excuse for it. No wonder LJ quit posting .
To his credit which now humbles me to know he came back and helped me after he had quit posting here; he had the courtesy and respect to answer my PM request for his opinion as well as volunteering information by >coming back, even though temporally<and help me through PM on the subject topic > OAV too hot<. I suppose I should be even more so grateful now to him for coming back to Beemaster up on MY personal request for his advise and his opinions on that topic!
When points are made for both; Yea or Nay, no matter the beekeeping subject, sometimes it is a good idea IMHO to Drop back and punt, try things for ourselves. In this case ventilation is just such a discussion that all are not in TOTAL agreement. Though all agree that ventilation is in order for many beekeepers locations. To what degree or how to go about is still in discussion apparently, a conclusion drawn after reading the last couple of post before my last post. which is what prompted me to politely suggest Terry experiment for himself in this case. Thus drawing his own conclusion. Which in the long run, will be the >absolute best< for him and his bees concerning ventilation in his location. I feel certain that we all should be able to agree on this?
Phillip
The thread 15th found is kinda interesting, but it seemed like everyone was assuming the bees as static or at least a "zero sum" in their effect on the air currents. Before jumping into that argument, I'd like to know if bees instinctually push air in a particular pattern or direction, instinctively vary patterns according to need or effectiveness, etc. .. looks like a need for research surfing the net or a bunch of work stringing k-thermocouples and micro flow sensors.
What da bees doin? .. so to speak. They may "fight" a particular air current established or simply adapt to whatever currents are present. Otherwise, maybe it's just a good way to get into an argument. :cheesy:
For that matter, some strains of bees may push the air differently than others.
Quote from: animal on June 18, 2024, 09:20:18 PM
For that matter, some strains of bees may push the air differently than others.
This is the most likely answer in my opinion. I mean, I'm sure there are certain constants about their behavior, but ventilation is such a varied thing between different beekeepers, it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of the variables was that the individual colonies react differently.
We have had this discussion so many times! :grin:
The ventilation issue, in my opinion, depends on where you are and the time of the year. For example, I never thought that a top and bottom entrance on my hives in winter was a good idea. I used my fireplace as the basis for my opinion. Heat rises, a hole at the time and bottom causes smoke (and heat) to go out the upper hole!
Am I right? Some people thought not and that ventilation was more important than heat preservation. As for screened bottom boards, I like them. I often left them open even in winter. They are super for swarm catching. Would I stop posting if someone disagreed with me? nope.
Quote from: Kathyp on June 19, 2024, 12:45:10 PM
We have had this discussion so many times! :grin:
The ventilation issue, in my opinion, depends on where you are and the time of the year. For example, I never thought that a top and bottom entrance on my hives in winter was a good idea. I used my fireplace as the basis for my opinion. Heat rises, a hole at the time and bottom causes smoke (and heat) to go out the upper hole!
Am I right? Some people thought not and that ventilation was more important than heat preservation. As for screened bottom boards, I like them. I often left them open even in winter. They are super for swarm catching. Would I stop posting if someone disagreed with me? nope.
What makes screen bottom boards better for swarm catching?
And I gave Hives #2 and 3 larger bottom entrances and it looks like they like them. :cheesy:
It was an old parlour trick in the UK when bees were ripening honey (solid floors and bottom entrances) to take a candle and you would see that at one end of the entrance the flame would be suck inwards and would be blown out at the other side.
Me I have open mesh floors and just open a top entrance in the supers when they they are ripening honey in hot weather (v.rare in UK).
QuoteWhat makes screen bottom boards better for swarm catching?
I am talking about going out on calls. You can tape the hive up tight and not worry about ventilation. I sometimes got calls when I was out in the car, and would go collect from wherever I was. Much better to be able to close the hive tight, than to drive home with bees flying around in your car :cheesy:
I have some screened bottoms and some solid. I leave the screened ones open during flying season and shut during the winter. I used to use top ventilation in the summer, but had a lot of mold trouble when I did that, and it seems I have less issues now that I keep top ventilation to a minimum. During the winter I put moisture quilts on all hives.
>What makes screen bottom boards better for swarm catching?
In my opinion screened bottoms are terrible for a bait hive. But they are great for the box you're taking them home in.
My next question is in regards to the new nuc that I made out of my largest hive. I'm planning to go into it on Monday and see if I can find a queen. The queen cell was open this past Monday and I'm thinking that if it was a successful queen, she should be in there and mated. Am I wrong? And if I don't find one, then I need to decide what to do. Scenario #1: No queen and no queen cells in Hive #1 so I need to merge. Paper merge above the queen excluder? Scenario #2: No queen but queen supersedure cells in some stage in Hive #1. Should I take the old queen and move her over to the nuc? I have cages that I can place over her and keep her on a frame of comb. This Monday will make two weeks since I split the nuc and if I read correctly, three weeks of no queen results in laying workers. Is that right? Any other thoughts or options?
She might be in there but I would not worry too much if she is not and she is probably not laying yet. One thing you can look for that would be a good sign that all is well is a cleaned out laying area in the comb showing the bees are confident things are working and they are getting ready for her. I give thirty days from hatch before panic. I don't see eggs or queens for that matter very well and so usually look for larva and that might add a little time. You should be able to tell from the comb though.
I agree with gww, the timing on queen mating, queen laying, and laying workers is very variable in real life, it's not like at the 3 week mark exactly the workers will start laying because the queen getting mated is now hopeless. I always give queens at least an extra week, sometimes two, if they are not yet laying at the 3-4 week check for eggs, and 9 times out of 10 everything is chugging along nicely when I check the second time. If they have empty polished cells and there are no laying workers (I'd be shocked if there were), just wait another week and check again.
If you are really unsure cut out some eggs from another hive and place in your nuc. If they don't draw queen cells you have your answer, if they do then you are ahead for getting a second queen. I usually cut a small triangle out from the comb of the doner hive . Take a frame from your nuc cut out a similar triangle and replace with the triangle containing eggs. Alternatively just stick a whole frame in with eggs.
This is my queen test as well Nigel, but your idea of the triangular piece of comb is new to me and a great idea. Thanks NigelP for posting that idea.
Adding Terri; make sure you replace the egg piece of comb in the position in which it was removed from the donor frame if you go Nigels first route. I just simply put a whole frame (as in Nigel?s second option) in but I really like Nigel?s idea.
And If you decide to use a whole frame instead; when the proper amount of time has passed with no queen cells formed, you can place the test frame back in the original hive (if desired). I just leave it. Good luck and let us know the results if you try either method!
Thanks
Phillip
All sounds like good advice, thanks. I have all plastic foundation, will cutting a triangle out work? As for the nuc, they're starting to fly now but I don't see them bringing in any pollen yet. Monday's inspection should be interesting.
With plastic foundation I wouldn?t try it. That stuff is pretty tough.
Yes after inspection you will know more. Hopefully you will find all stages of a brood including eggs.
Being it is so late in June, how is your flow?
Terry, the reason I am asking is because my first summer after the dearth set in at my location, a couple of my queens stopped laying.( At least for a period of time). I could not find ANY eggs and I really thought those queens were dead! I could not easily spot the queens to begin with and one was the exact color of the workers and those queens were not marked. I had assumed then, and I?m still assuming, - once they had stopped laying their abdomens may have shrunk making it even harder to find them- especially being a beginner not use to spotting the queen, therefore making it harder for me to find those queens on those bee infested frames.
:grin:
Adding once they started back laying I could once again find them.
Phillip
I'm not confident in my queenspotting skills, particularly if she's not marked, like this one won't be. On the up side, it's not overpopulated so she should be easier to find. I'm still oblivious on what flows around here and when, I'll see if I can get that off of my local club. But OTOH, I do have two other hives to use as comparison for what's going on inside. I've been feeding my swarm hive because they're guzzling it like drunken sailors and I don't believe it will hurt anything. I'm not looking to harvest honey off of them but I figure if they're not using it to make wax, they're using it to build foodstores, which they can use during the dearth when it hits. The swarm hive is pulling in a bit of pollen so I know there's still some out there but hive #1 is hardly bringing any in. And I can't tell what the nuc hive is doing but they're not running pollen at the moment. The still don't get out too early.
I wasn?t confident either. Confidence will build with experience.
TheHoneyPump posted a confident building topic on how to spot the queen along with trivia pictures where the queen would be half hidden, or almost hidden in some cases, for the benefit of newer beekeepers to inspect. I thought that was mighty nice of him to take the time to do that. I wish I could find that link address but so far I haven?t.
Phillip
You can also look at practice queen-spotting pictures like that on any social media if you are on Instagram or Facebook or anything like that. Just follow #queenspotting and you'll get tons of practice videos and pictures.
I picked up a copy of 'Queen Spotting' by Hilary Kearny and I have been practicing with it. I'm even less confident that I would recognize an unmated queen. I'll work hard at trying next week when I look inside.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on June 21, 2024, 05:50:27 PM
I picked up a copy of 'Queen Spotting' by Hilary Kearny and I have been practicing with it.
Oh cool, I follow Hilary on Instagram, but I don't have that book. She may cover this but just a couple pointers I've found helpful: Really allow your eyes to take in the whole frame and let your brain notice which bee is different. Drones will mess with this, but with some practice, your brain will eventually stop flagging them. Queens that are the same color as the majority of their workers can be tricky, as can very flighty or very tame queens. Flighty queens will try to hide, and tame queens will keep on laying, obscuring their long abdomens in the cells. Another technique is try to train your eyes to notice the queen's retinue of workers in a circle around her.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on June 21, 2024, 05:50:27 PM
I'm even less confident that I would recognize an unmated queen.
That's difficult for everyone, so don't beat yourself up about that. Unmated queens are sometimes not much bigger than workers, they usually won't have a retinue yet, and they tend to be very flighty.
> That's difficult for everyone, so don't beat yourself up about that. Unmated queens are sometimes not much bigger than workers, they usually won't have a retinue yet, and they tend to be very flighty.
True; And they look kind of like a wasp with the thin abdomen. (In my opinion).
I am looking for hundreds of virgin queens every week and sometimes I can't find them in a two frame mating nuc. Sometimes I can, but only because of a lot of practice. It's risky, though, as they sometimes fly off.
And now for my next question: My split nuc is doing well in its five frame nuc box and I want to give them their best chance of making it through the winter. I'm thinking that my next options are 1) Add another five frame to the top of that one, 2) Move them into a ten frame box 3) One of the above and feed syrup. I am of the mindset that I should feed syrup as long as they take it because I am not going to harvest honey and all I can be doing is helping them out with it. I know it's getting late in the year and think that that should come into play with this decision.
Terri my first years goal was similar to yours. My goal was not honey but bees. I think I might have told you the story of taking 5, 5 frame nucs through the winter? I open fed pollen throughout the winter months. The bees would fly to pollen at 43 degrees (if I remember correctly). Plus I fed sugar syrup 1/1 through out the winter and bordman style. This did two things for me, a beginner. It insured they might make it through the winter without starving and assured they had plenty of what they needed for nutrition from the pollen substitute. I am a firm believer that pollen is just as important as liquid for colony growth and health.
As I may or may not have told you. Those 5 nucs came out of winter thriving! My location no doubt is a bit warmer than yours. Still even through the Winter we will have days and days below 42 degrees and many times, weeks below freezing on and off through out the Winter season. But the days they could fly, they did gather both pollen sub and sugar syrup as well.
Adding: I am thinking that they used the sugar syrup as much as possible and left their stores alone as much as possible but this I can not prove as I did not open the nucs until Spring. Michale Palmer teaches about how he over winters Nucs successfully in even Vermont. David at Barnyard Bees taught me how he does it in Georgia, a winter climate similar to mine, in fact he is almost due East a couple states over from me . I am in Northern Mississippi.
Phillip
So I am with Philip,Im way further south than you also, but I see no reason you cant overwinter a 5 frame, If they are healthy, have plenty of bees and ample stores. I would stack on the 5 frame, Feed, and condense down before real winter sets in if needed.
Thanks guys, that sounds like a plan to me. I have two more five frame boxes in the pipeline for now. I'll give them some room and feed all the syrup they'll take. They're dong good job of bringing in pollen and it looks like they're bringing in more than my other two hives.
The only question I'd have is whether it will be difficult to overwinter a nuc in Terri's climate. I've never overwintered a nuc, so I have no experience, but I would guess that for much of the winter it will be too cold in SE PA for bees to take syrup. I might be inclined to put them in a full sized hive box and feed them so they have enough stored for the winter. Or you could feed them solid sugar all winter I guess, provided the nuc has some sort of feeding spacer and five frames of bees has enough critical mass to keep warm.
See I dont know the exact weather situation, I overwinter them all the time. Just my opinion better to have 4 full frames in a 5 frame box vrs 10 frame box. but down here the problem is the bees not moving off the brood during a couple week freeze.
Im north and overwintered nucs fine, but I found that 5 over 5 is best. Some 5 frame nucs came out of winter a little on the weak side so I went to all 5/5 years ago. The most important winter prep is low mite count. If a nuc goes into winter with 3 or more mites per 300 bees their chance of overwintering is greatly reduced.
My mentor overwinters nucs and my spring nuc came out of one of them. He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties. And of course, all bees are different and he tells me that the nuc that I got didn't touch either the pollen or fondant last winter. I can make shims to place under the cover to make room for fondant and pollen patties and I guess I should start looking into that now, I prefer to stay ahead of the curve on such things. And I was wondering what, if anything, I should do to help them build their own stores in prep for the winter. If I can induce them to store enough so I don't have to feed them, I'd prefer that.
Quote from: Bill Murray on July 05, 2024, 11:45:28 AM
So I am with Philip,Im way further south than you also, but I see no reason you cant overwinter a 5 frame, If they are healthy, have plenty of bees and ample stores. I would stack on the 5 frame, Feed, and condense down before real winter sets in if needed.
Bill that is just what I did the following Spring. I added another 5 frame empty on top of each just before the flow, and off to the races they went. When these were pretty well filed or most had comb drawn, it gave me 10 frames of deeps which I then transferred into a single deep 10 framer and I added an empty 10 on top of that. Worked out real well. As with.many dealings with bees, timing is a key element.
Phillip
Quote from: Terri Yaki on July 05, 2024, 01:35:16 PM
He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties.
I dont have a lot of experience with pollen patties because I found they dont make a difference in my hives. Im surprised he feeds pollen patties during the winter, thats the time you dont want them to raise brood. Typically, patties are added in late winter.
Quote from: beesnweeds on July 05, 2024, 02:49:58 PM
Quote from: Terri Yaki on July 05, 2024, 01:35:16 PM
He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties.
I dont have a lot of experience with pollen patties because I found they dont make a difference in my hives. Im surprised he feeds pollen patties during the winter, thats the time you dont want them to raise brood. Typically, patties are added in late winter.
Depends on location. Terris winter location is similar to yours I assume. I for another dont use >pollen patties< period. I have found no need in my location for any season.
QuoteI for another dont use >pollen patties< period.
I dont use pollen substitute period, If on an occasion protien is needed I use homemade pollen patties. I found very little difference on brood production when using pollen substitutes.
Quote from: beesnweeds on July 05, 2024, 02:49:58 PM
Quote from: Terri Yaki on July 05, 2024, 01:35:16 PM
He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties.
I dont have a lot of experience with pollen patties because I found they dont make a difference in my hives. Im surprised he feeds pollen patties during the winter, thats the time you dont want them to raise brood. Typically, patties are added in late winter.
You may be right on this and I'll have to check with him. My first experience with him was in early April and I thought he had used them through the winter.
Quote from: Bill Murray on July 05, 2024, 03:53:24 PM
QuoteI for another dont use >pollen patties< period.
I dont use pollen substitute period, If on an occasion protien is needed I use homemade pollen patties. I found very little difference on brood production when using pollen substitutes.
I used the sub my first year because of my concern of my first bees. I wanted to do everything in my power to insure they survived and thrived. This is when amd wjwre I talked to David at Barnyard Bees by both comments his videos and via phone where he explained what it is he does which has proven successful in his commercial bee production. Worked for me. 😊
As beesnweeds I no longer use pollen sub of any type. I did the pollen patties the following spring as does Ian Steppler but my trouble there was SHB unlike him in Canada. There again, this is where location plays an important part of how we as individual beekeepers manage our bees.
Phillip
Well what I found was no more than they can take in 3-4 days. And on day 4 you better be making sure anything thats left is removed from the hive. Or the beetle larva are atrocious. Reason it has to be a must before I engage.
Makes perfect sense Bill. The SHB break outs can be bad here at times. I can just imagine how bad they may become >at times< further South as in your Florida!
Phillip
I might should know this by now but I don't...It sounds like they don't need pollen through the winter and it's just used as food for the brood? Would that also mean that honey is all they use to carry them through the winter?
No thats not exactly true, as the bee ages its need for protein decreases, Foraging age bees cant digest pollen and beebread is passed to them as needed.
Location is a consideration here as well. For example; Our fellow beekeeper in Australia, Lesgold bees never go completely brood-less even in Winter. This is why he is working so diligently on developing a queen cage to meet his satisfaction, to help his bees go brood-less artificially, seeking a Winter brood break.
I am of the understanding that in my area they come to a halt for a time in the winter months, but even in Canada, in late Winter the Queen will begin slowly laying, but there again only enough for the winter bees to successfully be able to attend. Pollen, (bee bread), is necessary.
Being this is your first year to actually keep bees, I shared with you my experiences of what I did in first year as well. My 5, 5 frame emergency nuc situation was a circumstance where the splits were made under an emergency situation. Bees definitely need pollen stores for late Winter in order to be prepared to feed late winter brood, and that would include your area as well. But you should be just fine since you are not making (late) Fall splits. Your bees should gather enough pollen for storage before winter sets in. And remember we still have the Fall goldenrod flow which should provided your bees with pollen gathering opportunity for their own needs.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on July 06, 2024, 08:27:50 AM
I might should know this by now but I don't...It sounds like they don't need pollen through the winter and it's just used as food for the brood? Would that also mean that honey is all they use to carry them through the winter?
Yes, pollen is not really food for adult bees it?s for the developing larval bees that will form the future workforce. Long lived or winter bees, also called "diutinus" bees have high fat bodies and can raise brood from that fat by producing brood food from glands. Honey is the carbs for bees to overwinter and pollen is the protein to raise brood. As winter progresses and the winter bees deplete fat bodies, they can use the stored pollen to produce brood food. The raising of winter bees is triggered by the LACK of pollen, thats why its counterproductive to feed pollen subs in the fall. Feeding pollen in late summer or early fall extends normal brood rearing and not the raising of winter bees and can increase mite load.
Quote from: beesnweeds on July 06, 2024, 01:17:46 PM
The raising of winter bees is triggered by the LACK of pollen, thats why its counterproductive to feed pollen subs in the fall. Feeding pollen in late summer or early fall extends normal brood rearing and not the raising of winter bees and can increase mite load.
Interesting! I wonder how that relates to areas like mine where I have a big pollen flow in the fall. Perhaps my bees are raising the winter bees later than I assumed.
Quote from: The15thMember on July 06, 2024, 01:24:53 PM
Interesting! I wonder how that relates to areas like mine where I have a big pollen flow in the fall. Perhaps my bees are raising the winter bees later than I assumed.
Im not sure but you can start with this information.
Mattila HR and GW Otis. 2007. Dwindling pollen resources trigger the transition to broodless populations of long-lived honeybees each autumn. Ecological Entomology. 32:496-505.
Mattila HR and GW Otis. 2007. Manipulating pollen supply in honey bee colonies during the fall does not affect the performance of winter bees. Canadian Entomologist. 139:554-563.
Thanks, I'll take a look.
Quote from: The15thMember on July 06, 2024, 01:39:57 PM
Thanks, I'll take a look.
You're welcome. In my area August is the period that would trigger the start of raising winter bees in early September. When pollen starts coming in at a high rate here in the fall its stored for spring brood rearing. Pollen patties/subs are not stored.
So kinda check this out it explains better than I.
Honey bees consume pollen and nectar from flowers. Nectar provides carbohydrates and small amounts of other nutrients, while pollen provides the bulk of the insect?s protein and lipid requirements. Pollen is a key component of honey bee individual and colony health, impacting growth, longevity, and immunocompetence [4?24]. While foragers consume large amounts of nectar and honey to provide the energy for flight, nurse worker bees (?nurses?, ~5?15 days of age [25]) eat large amounts of pollen in order to fuel the growth and secretory activity of their hypopharyngeal glands (HGs). These paired secretory glands in the head secrete the major protein fraction of the jelly fed via trophallaxis to larvae, adult workers, and queens in the hive. HGs are sensitive to pollen intake, and a hallmark of nurse pollen deprivation is their small HGs, which actively degrade in response to pollen deprivation [13]. HG development is also sensitive to pollen source, with different pollens and pollen mixtures contributing to this variability [5, 6]. But despite detailed data on the plant taxon diversity and nutrient content of pollens that result in HG growth [4, 6], it is still unclear what components of these pollens encourage HG growth.
Link https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0191050 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0191050)
I have 8 or 9 deep supers that have been full for well over a month but the bees are not capping. The cells are thicker than usual at the top as if they may have started capping but stopped. It looks like honey, tastes like honey and is thick.
We are not in a dearth yet and they are still bringing in stores so they are not using it. All I can come up with is maybe the high humidity is keeping them from getting it ready? Because of this I am picking up a refractometer but just wondering what would keep them from capping?
Quote from: Bill Murray on July 08, 2024, 03:21:36 PM
So kinda check this out it explains better than I.
Honey bees consume pollen and nectar from flowers. Nectar provides carbohydrates and small amounts of other nutrients, while pollen provides the bulk of the insect?s protein and lipid requirements. Pollen is a key component of honey bee individual and colony health, impacting growth, longevity, and immunocompetence [4?24]. While foragers consume large amounts of nectar and honey to provide the energy for flight, nurse worker bees (?nurses?, ~5?15 days of age [25]) eat large amounts of pollen in order to fuel the growth and secretory activity of their hypopharyngeal glands (HGs). These paired secretory glands in the head secrete the major protein fraction of the jelly fed via trophallaxis to larvae, adult workers, and queens in the hive. HGs are sensitive to pollen intake, and a hallmark of nurse pollen deprivation is their small HGs, which actively degrade in response to pollen deprivation [13]. HG development is also sensitive to pollen source, with different pollens and pollen mixtures contributing to this variability [5, 6]. But despite detailed data on the plant taxon diversity and nutrient content of pollens that result in HG growth [4, 6], it is still unclear what components of these pollens encourage HG growth.
Link https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0191050 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0191050)
Thanks. That helps explain it a bit. Knowing what they do with what will make it easier to understand what is going on.
Quote from: Caashenb on July 08, 2024, 05:14:45 PM
We are not in a dearth yet and they are still bringing in stores so they are not using it. All I can come up with is maybe the high humidity is keeping them from getting it ready? Because of this I am picking up a refractometer but just wondering what would keep them from capping?
In my area that would be the culprit. It can take a while for honey to get capped in my area, but usually what happens is the bees get as close to 18% water as they can, and then just give up and cap it. I often get capped sourwood around 20%, which is fine. If the moisture content is really low though, I'm not sure what would be the issue.
Reagan if they have a lot of uncapped honey when the dearth hits, what do they use to cap the honey combs? Do they simply use stored honey to convert to wax for the capping? Or do they simply wait, leaving the uncapped honey to dry further, while hoping for enough flow to follow to make enough wax to finish the capping? Could this possibly be one reason your bees, in your area, are slow on capping? 🤷🏻♂️. Reaching I know. . .
Phillip
I'm thinking they'd simply requisition wax from other places if the flow wasn't strong enough for them to be producing wax anymore. I've seen bees tear down comb to something that looks like foundation (which I don't use) when pressed for wax in an emergency.
What do you do to provide a base for them to make comb?
Nothing, I'm fully foundationless, so I just put totally empty frames in the hives, always checkerboarded if possible so they draw straight. I just buy wedge top bar frames and nail the wedges in sideways for starter strips. Bees in the wild don't have foundation, so I just never saw the need for the added expense. And I see so many people that have trouble with the bees not accepting the foundation or drawing wonky comb on it anyway that I don't see the advantage personally. Plus then the bees can draw the cell size however they prefer it and have as many drones as they want.
The only downside I can see to that is the need for them to make more comb all the time vs reusing it. I would imagine that reusing would save a lot of work and resources. Does this work well for you because you are in a milder climate and they have more time?
With all mediums, I bet you could still run foundationless frames through an extractor if it wasn't too powerful, and I really bet you could if you wired them. Even if I got a small extractor, which I may do sometime, I wouldn't use foundation. Crushing and straining does make them use up more honey, so I get less per colony, but I can easily overcome that with more colonies. Plus you'd be surprised how much of a surplus of drawn comb I build up even still. I didn't have colonies drawing new comb this year until probably late May. I had 4 full sized bins and a stack of 4 or 5 hive boxes of comb stored last winter. Plus the sourwood flow means my bees will draw from April through mid-July with a break in early June.
I am all medium and run foundationless. I have a homemade extractor and so can not claim how they would do in a bought one but believe they would do fine. The older the comb gets the stronger it gets. If it had had brood in it, sometimes they do not attach the bottom of the comb to the frame but they do the pure honey comb. Any thing not attached a bit, I just put a couple rubber bands around it and most do fine. I don't lose enough comb to make much of a difference. I lose ten times more by being lazy and letting wax moth get to them.
I have found the best way to store them is to turn full boxes of comb on their sides so light can get to them. This seems to keep wax moth away. My problem is I don't break down dead outs and store them proper and then you lose them. To the earlier question of comb guide. I make my own frames and cut the top bar in a V shape and it works more then not if I have a level hive. If they get off, I usually just chop the bad parts and let them drop in the hive and it all seems to work out. Michael bush has and example of the v top bar in his on line book.
Hope this helps more then hurts.
I am not so gung-ho on saving a lot of drawn comb anymore. It seems to me that SHB love hiding in empty drawn out comb cells. This may be another reason to melt combs down and start fresh each spring for those who are more focused on raising bees over honey. 🤷🏻♂️ (Such as Don "The Fat Beeman"
Yeah I absolutely must freeze comb before storing it, and I doubt I could store it stacked in hive boxes over the winter if we didn't get freezing temperatures regularly. I store any comb with even a little bit of honey or pollen in it in plastic bins, since the beetles seem to go for those first, and I've also had mice damage some woodenware to get to comb that isn't 100% empty.
Quote from: The15thMember on July 09, 2024, 04:18:28 PM
Yeah I absolutely must freeze comb before storing it, and I doubt I could store it stacked in hive boxes over the winter if we didn't get freezing temperatures regularly. I store any comb with even a little bit of honey or pollen in it in plastic bins, since the beetles seem to go for those first, and I've also had mice damage some woodenware to get to comb that isn't 100% empty.
Man and woman vs nature. The fight is real.
I agree with you Reagan. Foundationless wired deeps are fine through the extractor. Even better when they age a bit. First time through they need a slightly lower speed and a bit of care handling them but after that they work well. If they are not drawn fully to the bottom bar they can cause issues. I found that the new frames have fewer issues in a radial rather than a tangential extractor but again, speed is your enemy. Rather than trying to spin that last drop of honey out of new frames, I tend to pull the stickies out early and gives the bees a bit of a treat. There?s nothing lost if you don?t try to be greedy.
I run all mediums. I don't wire. All my wooden frames are foundationless. I also have a lot of PF120 plastic frame/foundation. I also have a lot of Honey Super Cell fully "drawn" plastic cut down to mediums. I also have some PermaComb, also fully "drawn" plastic. I routinely extract the foundationless frames with no issues. All extracting should start at low speed and work your way up.
Another advantage of running medium frames.
A couple of general hive questions for today...I'm still feeding my swarm hive 1:1 syrup because they are guzzling it and still need to build more comb. They empty 1/2 gallon in about two days and I am kind of lackadaisical on keeping if filled. Does is mess them up if they go a day or two without? And, after reassembling hive(s) I have noticed that I flipped the box 180 degrees (not upside down), does this mess them up any? If I catch it before I'm all wrapped up with the inspection, I correct it, otherwise I just hope it doesn"t mess them up too bad> Something"s up with my keyboard< making these incorrect charachters>
Quote from: Terri Yaki on July 29, 2024, 11:29:12 AM
And, after reassembling hive(s) I have noticed that I flipped the box 180 degrees (not upside down), does this mess them up any? If I catch it before I'm all wrapped up with the inspection, I correct it, otherwise I just hope it doesn"t mess them up too bad
It's not a huge deal. I mean, I'd try to avoid doing it, especially with a brood box, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on July 29, 2024, 11:29:12 AM
A couple of general hive questions for today...I'm still feeding my swarm hive 1:1 syrup because they are guzzling it and still need to build more comb. They empty 1/2 gallon in about two days and I am kind of lackadaisical on keeping if filled. Does is mess them up if they go a day or two without?
I'm not sure about this one. I'm wondering, since you are trying to get them to draw, if so-called "trickle feeding" would be the best method, where you feed them like no more than 1 qt. every day. Are you feeding with ball jars?
Yep, Ball jars and 1qt/day is about what they're taking.
Feeding constantly is the most common cause of swarming. An in hive feeder is treated like a spill and will be stored anywhere with no feedback mechanism to stop. In the fall (actually anytime) I would feed the thickest syrup I can make, which for me seems to be 5:3. Thick syrup keeps better and in the fall it's important that it's not too wet and gets cured well. I would certainly not be feeding during any kind of a flow unless it's late and the hives are light.
Thanks, MB
Yesterday, my mentor came over and we went through all three hives and tested for mites. Hive #1 all looked good with eggs, larvae and brood so we're back to life, at least for now. We have another heat wave coming so we'll see if that slows them down again. Anyhow, only got one mite out of that hive so all is good. Nuc hive that I split off of that hive had four and he gave me his thoughts, along with the thoughts of others that he collected off of others. I just listened but from what I have gleaned from here, four mites during a dearth is not that big deal and since it's supposed to get into the 90s for the next few days, treatment is not an option but another check after the heat wave is in order. Eggs, larvae and brood were also found here. My swarm hive looked kind of weak to us for some reason so we didn't even test it but we did find eggs, larvae and brood so better days are hopefully coming. I had previously moved a frame of brood into the upper brood box in this hive but we reversed that move and took out some empty frames to make room for two or three frames with brood on them. The bottom box is otherwise getting filled with nectar, probably from the syrup I've been feeding them.
On the feeding issue. I think I stated before if you want weight, interior feeders are the way to go. For comb drawing 1 part sugar 2 parts water. Make your own feeder lids, small, teeny tiny holes only 3. make them work for it. Also a huge amount of house bees. They will be hanging around just waiting with wax glands working.
This is the first I've heard thinner than 1:1 or is that a typo? I have one line of about six holes. Some lids have bigger holes than others but 3/16" is the biggest. I pair it with one with about 1/8" holes and the one with larger holes gets empty first. My mentor suggests that I add more holes but they're drinking a quart a day, how much more do they need?
Bill how I found the right size holes for my tops, was I first ordered Boardman feeders my first year. Of course the tops are already pre-drilled. To make more, I went to Harbor freight finding the proper size bits. I found they were so small that my then Dewalt 18 V Chuck would not tighten down enough to secure these tiny bits. To overcome this, I simply placed the bit in a drill press which accepted the bits just fine and made for easy drilling. (Sorry I can?t remember the size)
Using ball brand tops, I stacked three together thus drilling three holes with every downward plunge. Worked really good, but I did find you need to be in no hurry to start the initial hole in the first top because the bits are so small and can easily break but if you take your time it is no problem. It does not take a lot of time to get the job done. I think I put around 12 holes in each top which was an advantage for the bees.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on August 04, 2024, 06:28:25 PM
My mentor suggests that I add more holes but they're drinking a quart a day, how much more do they need?
I use a finish nail and pop 9 holes in a square pattern and use 2 mason jars over the inner cover hole, which is fine for building up nucs. It's getting late in the north to build comb. I'm done building comb for the year here. All nucs and hives are fat and happy now. Keep feeding them 2:1 until your upper deep is near full and they will be ready for winter. You want volume, so hive top or bucket feeders work great. If all your comb is drawn, then you still have plenty of time to get them ready for winter. About one month before your first frost date is when you want to start feeding them heavy if they are light on stores. This was a very good year for honey, and we may still get a good fall flow.
We have a string of days cool enough to apply Formic Pro mite treatment so how should I do it? My 5 frame nuc is the subject in need. I'm thinking I should take one strip, cut it in half and apply as per the instructions. The instructions also say to add a honey super but I don't have one. I could place five frames of comb into a box up top though.
The instructions for FormicPro specify you should have at least 6 frames of bees, so anything less is going to be off-label use, which I've never done. Definitely don't skimp on the extra space during this treatment or you'll have a lot of dead loss, and be sure their entrance is fully open. If you feel you need to cut a strip in half, be aware that this stuff is highly corrosive, so don't use something metal that you care about as a cutting implement and obviously be sure to wear gloves, probably disposable ones. I might be inclined to just use a single strip without cutting it, since the paper around the gel is really important to the slow-release, and I'd be concerned that extra air exposure might cause the acid to sublimate too quickly.
Hmmmm...what to do? This is a five frame nuc so I don't think I can get a whole strip in there. I can fill a third box with empty comb. Thanks for the tip, I won't take Mrs. Terri's scissors out there and I'll use a box cutter if I cut. My mite count was four, have ye any thoughts on not treating at this time? Eventually, I'll be faced with the same problem.
Hi Folks, Terri,
I frequently say that a most important characteristic for a beekeeper is curiosity. Never stop LOOKING for something old, something new, something borrowed, something Randy Oliver.....
https://scientificbeekeeping.com/formic-pro-and-queens-in-hot-weather/
Formic acid IN AUGUST is a big, big killer of queens. Line up a queen just in case.
Sal
You could always do an OA dribble (5ml per seam), take a count in a week and go from there.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on August 05, 2024, 05:52:51 PM
My mite count was four, have ye any thoughts on not treating at this time?
4 out of what? How many bees did you test? Or if you don't know the number of bees, what was the approximate volume of bees (1/4 cup, 1/2 cup, 1 cup, etc.)?
1/3 cup of bees.
OK, here's my thoughts...4 mites is not all that bad but I don't want to ignore it. This is a five frame double box nuc and I don't want to kill them. I'm thinking 1/2 strip of formic pro and add a third box full of comb. Is there any downside to this?
I'm really not sure. On the one hand, a 2% mite infestation isn't too bad. On the other, I'm really not sure what the risk of using the FormicPro like this is. FormicPro is an extremely efficacious product, which makes it great, but its margin of safety for the bees is pretty thin as a result, and you are introducing a lot of unknown variables here. Worst-case scenario is that it kills the queen and a lot of the bees, but it also might be fine. It kind of depends on which risk you are personally more comfortable with, the mites or the treatment.
QuoteFormic acid IN AUGUST is a big, big killer of queens. Line up a queen just in case.
Sal
I would reccomend you paying special attention to Salvo on this.
Here is more for you to consider Taken from the following Beemaster Location: .
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51861.msg460990#msg460990
Offline TheHoneyPump
Queen Bee
****
Location: North Western Canada
Posts: 1391
Work Hard. Play Harder.
View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
? Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 08:24:52 pm ?
QuoteModifyRemoveSplit Topic
I did not mention the signs mites nor the lack of food as those were obvious plus you noted two clear issues in the original post.
Mites + virus = dead, what other signs are there in hive or out on ground?
Mites + lack of food = dead (mention of plenty of stores though, so ruled out)
Small cluster from mite or nosema + cold = dead
Nosema = stalled colony, eventually dead
Mite + nosema = super duper dead, kills the fastest
Your mention of this colony never really thriving means they have been sick all along. That can be a nosema sign, hence my ask. Did you sample and microscope for nosema at any time?
The signs in the comb and your updated info obviously indicates a high might load. The treatment method and schedule should be reviewed. OAV is very effective when applied at the right time and right intervals, the intervals being dictated by the brood status of the hive. Mid winter, no brood, treat once maybe twice. Brooding late summer/fall, treat at 4-5 days for 24 days (6 treatments). Imho.That said, I would still be investigating, particularly wrt nosema, based on the observation that the hive was always lagging.
I also see she is cordovan colours. They are dead now so traits are unknown, just your observation memory. However, I can say that around here the cordovan are really crap bees. I mean REALLY crap bees. Low hardiness for winter and tender in that they seem to succumb to the slightest ailments. They sure are pretty bees though.
>I mean REALLY crap bees. Low hardiness for winter and tender in that they seem to succumb to the slightest ailments. They sure are pretty bees though.
In theory Cordovan is just a color. In reality they are all from the same line of bees. They tend to be brood rearing fools with no common sense. They vary from VERY docile to VERY defensive. In my experience not a lot of in between. But then some of that may be the F1 effect of them being their own line and getting crossed with anything else brings out defensiveness. I agree they are beautiful bees but not very successful.
OK, here's what I did, correct me where I went wrong. I couldn't decide on 1 strip or 1/2 so I went with what I usually do in these situations and split the difference. It's about 2/3 and cuts really easy with a box cutter. The upper brood box is still pretty much full of empty frames except for one with brood on it. I might have moved that up there previously to induce activity in the upper box, I'd have to check my notes. I found one frame full of honey in the bottom on the outside. I moved the honey frame up and the brood frame down and the queen was sighted and on the move. This queen is always easy to find but in a nuc, there aren't as many places to hide.
I think I read that we should not feed during treatment so I pulled off the jar that I gave them yesterday, which is half empty now. I was going to put a box of comb up top but it seems I don't have any comb so I just left the empty box up there in case they want to hide. As I sit here, I'm thinking that even empty frames would give them something to hang out on. That box is above the inner cover right now in case I find that I should keep feeding.
What should I change about what I did?
I think that all sounds pretty good. I'd probably have put frames in the upper box for the reasons you stated, but I think I would just leave it now, since you don't want to release all the formic gas by opening the lid. Good call on removing their feed, and be sure their entrance is fully open and their bottom board is closed off if it's screened. I'd say leave them for a week or two and see what happens.
Sounds like I winged it good then, thanks. Yes, bottom entrance reducer is removed and I have two quarter sized washers propping the the top to create some air flow.
I'm not sure that cross ventilation is a good idea. I'm pretty sure the FormicPro instructions specify no top ventilation. If they are really fanning then maybe, but if they don't seem stressed and you can pull the washer out without entirely removing the lid, I'd probably seal the top. I don't really know though, this is all kind of a stab in the dark as far as what is really best. :grin:
OK thanks, I'll read up on their instructions and I can weasel them outta there pretty easily.
A few bees are already dying, is that normal?
Quote from: Terri Yaki on August 07, 2024, 12:28:23 PM
A few bees are already dying, is that normal?
It's not abnormal. FormicPro is known for taking down weak or sick bees, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you see more than a handful dead though, go ahead and crack the lid again.
Thanks. I just checked and I'd guess that I've seen ten or less. I've also heard that they would beard and exactly the opposite has happened. There are a few foragers coming in and all the rest are deep inside. I can't even see any guarding the entrance. I don't know how long foragers are out but the ones coming in seem hesitant to land. With none of them guarding the entrance, is there a chance of robbing?
Their hesitation is due to the fact that the hive doesn't smell right. So they are approaching the entrance and then thinking, "Wait, is this really the place?" I've never had a hive be robbed during a formic treatment, I think the robbers are deterred by the smell too, but I've also never treated a colony this small.
I don't use formic, but if I did, I would follow these instructions. Especially on nucs.
https://scientificbeekeeping.com/formic-pro-and-queens-in-hot-weather/
Quote from: beesnweeds on August 07, 2024, 08:54:42 PM
I don't use formic, but if I did, I would follow these instructions. Especially on nucs.
https://scientificbeekeeping.com/formic-pro-and-queens-in-hot-weather/
I did see that earlier and forgot about it. Now I just have to wait and see what happens.
Our temps have dropped into the 60s so I am thankful for that. We are getting the tail end of the tropical storm for the next couple of days. I checked this morning and I don't have a bunch of dead bees but I do have a bunch of dead larvae. Is this normal?
Terri,
Would you believe that last night we had a quick rain storm and I looked on the radar and it was a tail of Debbie.
Jim Altmiller
That sounds like a large storm.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on August 08, 2024, 07:46:17 AM
Our temps have dropped into the 60s so I am thankful for that. We are getting the tail end of the tropical storm for the next couple of days. I checked this morning and I don't have a bunch of dead bees but I do have a bunch of dead larvae. Is this normal?
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on August 08, 2024, 08:12:02 AM
Les,
Several years ago, in May, I was called to remove an open air hive by a company security guard. It was a little bit larger than the size of a football. The guard said that she first saw it in early March and she wasn?t worried about it because it was no bigger than her fist. That hive survived one of our coldest springs in a long time including rain with no protection other than the bees themselves.
Jim Altmiller
This talk of varroa as well as temperature remind me of an older topic,
Can Cold Temperatures With Excessive Ventilation Naturally Aid In Pest Control?? on: January 27, 2021, 02:08:05 pm ?
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54248.msg491977#msg491977
Quote from: Terri Yaki on August 08, 2024, 07:46:17 AM
Our temps have dropped into the 60s so I am thankful for that. We are getting the tail end of the tropical storm for the next couple of days. I checked this morning and I don't have a bunch of dead bees but I do have a bunch of dead larvae. Is this normal?
Yes, the treatment will often take out some of the brood too. Unless it's excessive, I wouldn't be concerned.
Thanks for the help!
And things seem to have settled down. The 'house' looks like it's been cleaned up and the girls are flying about as much as the other two hives, which isn't much with the weather we have.
It has been recommended that I condense my largest hive one more time but I have a question about doing that...Should I make that move, the hive will not have any empty space left, with the exception of some empty brood comb. Will this induce a swarm?
You could condense (compress) it and put the empties in the top box and wait for colder weather to pull it off. Right now they might swarm, though they are less likely than they would have been earlier.
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 26, 2024, 09:52:29 AM
You could condense (compress) it and put the empties in the top box and wait for colder weather to pull it off. Right now they might swarm, though they are less likely than they would have been earlier.
I'm laughing at the fact that I didn't think of that already. Thanks. Plus, if they build it up with stores of brood, I could use them in the nuc, which is low on them.
This morning, I have some yellow jackets trying to get into my nuc hive and only my nuc hive. I watched for a while, swatted a few and chased some off. I also reduce their entrance to the smallest one I have. They seem to be keeping them out...for now. I do not have any robbing screens but it looks like I best come up with some. How big a threat are yellow jackets and what is the best way to handle them?
Tunnel entrances make excellent defences against wasps.
These are commercial ones, called hive gate, but you should get the principal a long tunnel where the in hive entrance and exit is underneath the middle of the brood nest. Bees are able to defend these very well against robbing yellowjackets and are my go to method. I've yet to see them fail. If your nuc entrance is round, a piece of tubing will do the trick, rather than long and flat.
(https://www.thorne.co.uk/uploads/media/ProductImage/0001/21/thumb_20257_ProductImage_big.jpeg)
(https://www.thorne.co.uk/uploads/media/ProductImage/0001/18/thumb_17236_ProductImage_big.jpeg)
Similar to the inside tunnel entrances are these outside tunnel entrances, where the entrances are at the ends of the conduit with entrance into hive in the middle.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eUIAAOSwUklkxsBZ/s-l1600.webp)
QuoteI do not have any robbing screens but it looks like I best come up with some. How big a threat are yellow jackets and what is the best way to handle them?
I like NigelPs idea. I had not seen those before.
It depends on how many there are and how strong your hive is. I have had them take down strong hives, but there were 1000s of them attacking. My down the way neighbor has one of his construction business outyards full of stuff, and I suspect that's a great breeding ground for them.
I finally figured out how they do it. not only are they after the stores, but they are also after the larvae. The big destruction comes when they weaken the hive and kill the queen.
The best I have ever done is to reduce the entrance to the smallest size and make sure there are no secondary gaps or holes that they can attack.
I would love to see NigelPs tunnel in action!
Problem found and resolved...my mentor convinced me to add more holes to my feeder lids and I had a leaker. Hive disassembled, hosed off and reassembled. That white plastic piece is interesting. I have some similar plastic that I kept (since I am a keeper of things) when I replaced the vinyl fence around my pool. I'll try making one and see if my stock is sufficient. Thanks for that.
I have 3 Dyna Traps around my house and barn. I leave them on all year round. I haven?t had any problems with LJs since. The traps catch a lot of LJs most of the year. I think this keeps their numbers down so that the nests never get very large.
Jim Altmiller
In many ways it depends on the density of YJ populations in your particular area. I have one apiary, my main one that can suffer badly from them in a bad year. Fortunately this year was bad year of the YJs. So no problems.
My other 2 sites are relatively unaffected any year.
Yet friend of mine loses hives to them every year. Obviously in a YJ "hotspot"....will he try these tunnel entrances....no he won't. He believes reduced entrances are the answer, despite him losing hives to them every year. You can lead horses to water...
In the northeast yellow jackets aren't much of a threat. Yellow jackets are like vultures, the prey on weak dying hives sometimes after they have been taken out by honeybees' number one enemy. The number one enemy of weak colonies here is strong colonies, yellow jackets don't even come close to what honeybees can do to each other.
My experiences are much the same. I don't appear to be in a "hotspot", Nigel termed it, so weak hives will be a target for yellow jackets, along with robber bees, bald-faced hornets, etc. Strong hives with appropriately sized entrances don't have trouble keeping any of these intruders at bay. Your hive is a weak one though, Terri, so it may be a good idea to give them some additional entrance protection.
Think you both summed it up neatly. Strong hives have no problems, it's the weak ones that need additional protection....and often from fellow bees.
I cleaned up the syrup spill, reduced the entrance and all is good...for now. I am keeping a close eye on them for now. There are a couple of lingering YJs and I swat what I see when I'm out there. They're surprisingly not hard to take out, their situational awareness is worse than mine is.
Next question...the only hive that's running normal is my swarm hive. They're bringing in pollen hot and heavy and running orientation flights every few days. Should they still be doing orientation flights this late in the season?
Quote from: Terri Yaki on September 08, 2024, 03:04:27 PM
Should they still be doing orientation flights this late in the season?
Yes. They ensure the survival of the colony. Workers that become foragers only live 5 to 6 weeks. The bees that are doing orientation flights may already be about 20 days old or more depending on the needs of the hive and will replace dead ones to keep resources coming in until they have enough for winter. It seems like water foragers are the last ones to give up in my area then they are clustered for the rest of the year.
I had a colony that was orienting so heavily the other day, that I went up to the apiary to check and see if something was wrong. But nothing was amiss. I was happy to see they still had so many new bees.
QuoteStrong hives have no problems, it's the weak ones that need additional protection....and often from fellow bees.
Most of the time :wink:
YJs in the numbers I had for a couple of years can take down strong hives too. Our newest challenge seems be bald-faced hornets, but they have not bothered hives yet. Just people.
I killed about 15 YJ queens last spring and I'm confident that that didn't hurt my apiary one bit. I have had bald faced hornets in the past but haven't seen a one this year.
I had a bald-faced hornet flying around me trying to catch a bee out of the air while I was working my small but angry colony yesterday. She was welcome to a bee from that colony, although I don't think she managed to catch one. :grin:
QuoteI killed about 15 YJ queens last spring and I'm confident that that didn't hurt my apiary one bit.
That would easily be handled by your hive. I had many 100s attacking relentlessly day after day. I think my neighbor might have cleaned up some of those nests after his workers were stung, but it was a couple of years of them being so thick they were all over the ground, the hives, everywhere.
Have you ever been stung by a bald faced hornet?
I have not. Had a lady call me the other day about removing some. I took a pass. She'd been stung but considering what she'd been doing they didn't seem as aggressive as the YJs. I ran the tractor over a Yellowjacket nest once and they about killed me. If I had not been mostly covered, I don't know that I'd have made it without a hospital stay.
Me neither. I've actually never been stung by a yellow jacket either though. Other than honey bees, I've been stung by a paper wasp, a bumble bee, one of those little blue solitary wasps, and sweat bees. One time I was stung right in the center of my back by something when I sat in a chair outside, and it hurt like crazy, but I never saw the insect, so I don't know what that was. If we're not only talking hymenopterans, I have also been stung by a saddleback caterpillar.
Having not been stung by bald faced hornets explains a lot...like why you don't take proactive action against them. I grew up on a farm and worked on a horse farm for a few years early in life. I found a YJ nest between hay bales once and out along a creek whilst I was string trimming once. I've been hit by bald faced hornets about half a dozen times and other stinging vermin a few times. My experience with bald faced hornets is that they know what between the eyes is and what the temples are and they need no provocation. In my eyes, it's either me or them. Removing their nests is actually pretty easy if they are 15' or less from the ground. Go out at night with two cans of Raid Wasp and Hornet spray and empty the cans on the nest, starting at the entrance hole. If YJs are in the ground, a large pot of boiling water after dark puts them away and a skunk will probably be along to dig them out and eat them.
QuoteRemoving their nests is actually pretty easy if they are 15' or less from the ground. Go out at night with two cans of Raid Wasp and Hornet spray and empty the cans on the nest, starting at the entrance hole. If YJs are in the ground, a large pot of boiling water after dark puts them away and a skunk will probably be along to dig them out and eat them.
If I had one at my place, I'd remove it. I wasn't going to go do it for someone else :cheesy: If the YJ nests are where you can get to them, then yes you can deal with them. I have on my own property. Nests under the neighbors construction leftovers are out of my hands. It was not until his workers started getting hit that he did something about it, but by then they had acres of nests so it was not fixed overnight. We still have some, but nothing like before.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on September 08, 2024, 08:59:53 PM
If YJs are in the ground, a large pot of boiling water after dark puts them away and a skunk will probably be along to dig them out and eat them.
I had this exact thing happen once with a nest in the apiary. Poured hot water down the nest twice, and then the next morning it was all dug up. I think it was a raccoon though, not a skunk, simply because we have lots of raccoons, but I've never seen a skunk on this property.
Either is possible but skunks are nocturnal and they can be right there and you don't know it. But, I'd be surprised if they could be around for any length of time and not spray for some reason or other and that is hard to miss. There is one that lives in my area and when he's in my yard, he can hang around for a while and he (or she) stinks the place up. I forget how big an area they roam but they do roam a fairly large area.
How many days after merging hives should I inspect the hive?
If you are doing a paper combine, I don't see why you couldn't inspect once they are through the paper.
How will I know when they're through the paper? It's down under a deep.
I wouldn't bother with a newspaper unite, you have too few bees. I'd do an air freshener unite. Take a spray can of air freshener, any make; and spray both boxes and then put then together. Next day I'd shake the bees down into 1 box, remove any badly infected frames.
You can also do the same with a lot of smoke.
Jim Altmiller
Newspaper is easy peasy.
Make sure to make one 8+- razor blade slash in the center of the paper. They'll be though it in less than one day. The bees will then shred the paper and remove it from the hive if you don't.
Sal
Yeah, I'd say if you slashed your paper, wait 24 hours, and if you didn't, maybe wait 48 if you want to be sure. As Nigel said, these colonies are small and weak, they likely wouldn't fight even if you just threw them in together.
OK, paper was slashed in several places so I'll get out there tomorrow morning and take a peek and see how small I think I can make what's left of them.
Terri,
If you have one, just look at the oil tray. It will look like the bees were trying to insulate the bottom of the hive. If you only have a hard board for a bottom board, it will bee covered or they are pushing it out the front door.
Jim Altmiller
While looking through my hive(s), occasionally, I'll find a yellow jacket on a frame. I suspect that they landed there while I had it in my hands and didn't see it happen. What would happen if I missed one or two of those and they got put into the hive? Could they kill a queen?
In my experience, one or two yellow jackets can't do much of anything, and the bees in a strong colony will harass and chase them out if one or two enter the colony during an inspection. They may steal a larva or a mouthful of honey, maybe kill one or two workers if they get into a serious fight, but that's all. If however, you have yellow jackets entering the hive in force, stealing honey and brood and the workers aren't strong enough to stop them at the entrance, then yes, they can absolutely kill a queen. But I really wouldn't worry about one or two jackets during an inspection.
Our nights are cool here but we are getting some warm days, like high 70s and low 80s and I have what seems like abnormally high traffic on the porch. It doesn't look like robbing as there is no fighting going on and it's not too frantic. Would this be normal as the weather warms but there is no pollen or nectar to retrieve?
What time of day is this happening?
It's all day and here's a picture of it, if you can make it out. There's usually more traffic out there than this.
Oh, I see what you mean. I thought by "traffic" you meant bees coming and going, but if you are just talking about people hanging out on the porch, then it's likely just extra guard bees out because it's robbing season.
They were marching back and forth like sentinels. :cool: They just can?t sit still.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on October 22, 2024, 07:34:53 PM
They were marching back and forth like sentinels.
Is that your robbing guard on the entrance? If it is the bees are just confused on how to get back in. Take off the guard and leave a small one or two inch entrance.
I just noticed that jar of syrup sitting next to the colony. That's not at all open, right?
Quote from: beesnweeds on October 22, 2024, 10:13:40 PM
Is that your robbing guard on the entrance? If it is the bees are just confused on how to get back in. Take off the guard and leave a small one or two inch entrance.
Terri has had that on for a while. Wouldn't the resident bees know how to navigate it reasonably well by now?
No, some bees will always go to the scent of the hive and not directly to the large enough entrance. Some foragers will just drift to the next hive if there is one. If they don't some will may not make it back in at all and die. Robbing screens can be stressful for a colony.
Quote from: beesnweeds on October 22, 2024, 10:13:40 PM
Is that your robbing guard on the entrance? If it is the bees are just confused on how to get back in. Take off the guard and leave a small one or two inch entrance.
Nah, that's my excuse for a mouse guard and they're used to it now. I know it won't stop mice but I don't think I'll have a problem but if I do, that will let me know. I have the small entrance open under there and the hive seems strong. However, that tube couldn't hurt to help stop robbing. The bees climb all over it, in one hole and out the other. It's almost like they like it.
And no, that syrup isn't open and I brought that jar in earlier and put it in the refrigerator. I sat it out because there were some bees clinging to it at the time.