Very briefly, I have a hive that?s a mess and I haven?t pulled it apart and it?s winter again so I won?t touch it till summer. Some of you might remember my post where I tried to under super and al that stuff but I?ve had no success. I?ve come out today and we are in winter here, to find maybe 100 Larvae that have been thrown on the ground in front of the hive. I have no idea what?s going on. I don?t know if it?s been robbed I have no idea. When the heat comes on during the day, the hive looks very active, but when it?s raining or really cold, there?s just a couple of bees coming and going. I?ve never taken Honey off them and they had plenty in there when I last looked. In the summer I did put a super on top to go three stories high, but by the end of summer with winter starting they hadn?t done anything in that box so I took it back off a few months ago. I will try and attach some photos if it doesn?t give me grief. I have no idea what?s going on. This is way beyond my level of expertise.
Here?s a picture
Hi Guitarman,
What?s your varroa count like? From memory, you are in Sydney and people are starting to struggle with it in some areas of the western suburbs. Your bees will not be flying in great numbers when it is wet or cold. I stayed up there last night and it was cool. There has been a cold change that has gone through most of the state.
Guitarman,
I cannot tell from the picture but my bet, due to the onset of winter is that they are drone larvae. The bees do not want to support drones when no food is coming in. Take a clear closeup of one so that we can verify what it is.
Jim Altmiller
I agree with Les and Jim. The bees are pulling pupae they don't wish to come to adulthood for some reason. It could be, especially if they are drones, that the colony doesn't want to support them during the winter season, so they have pulled them out. Or the pupae could be infested with varroa mites or some other pest or disease, which they don't want spread to the rest of the brood. Or, it could be that the hive doesn't have enough pollen to feed all the brood, so they have removed some, although in instances like that they will typically cannibalize the brood instead. As Les said, if it's below roughly 15C (60F) and if it's raining regardless of temperature, the bees will not do much foraging.
It?s past midnight here, I?ve just gotten home from work, but I went out and took some pictures in the dark, I hope these help.
Those are definitely drones. So if your weather has taken a colder turn recently, I'd assume it's just that.
Being that they are drones being pulled out going into winter is a good thing. They are conserving their food supply when the drones are no longer needed for mating.
One of our new club members kept feeding his bees straight through his first winter and he had lots of drones all the way into spring. We had told him to expect to see drones being kicked out in the fall and couldn?t understand why he still had them. We told him it was the constant feeding. By the way, we had very mild weather that year.
Jim Altmiller
Well it?s been three months since I last posted. In the last couple of weeks I?ve had so many drones. Not only flying around the hive in big numbers but there?s big numbers on the ground crawling everywhere and dying. I did some googling and drones at this time of year is normal as it?s warming time very soon if not now. It?s the first time I?ve ever seen all these drones everywhere but I didn?t panic because what I read said it was normal and it doesn?t mean your hive is going to swarm or anything like that. Okay so what I?m saying here is I have heaps of drones.
Okay the next point I want to make is I was at my back window and I could hear the roar of the bees. And I thought are they swarming. I ran outside and it was a warm day in middle of the day. And the bees were crazy active and you could hear the roar in the front of the hive. I got up without a few metres and I watched them to see if they were swarming or what was going on. Not that I would have any idea what to look for. But what I did notice was none of the bees coming in had any pollen on them. I watched about five minutes and I didn?t see one bee With any pollen. And being very experienced 😂 owning one hive and being a Newby. I wondered are these bees robbing the hive. I did some more googling and it appears it?s highly likely they were.
They were busy again today but not as noisy as yesterday and I watched for about five minutes again and saw two bees coming with pollen on them. So I decided I need to put some mesh in the front and make that opening much smaller. At the moment it?s a full width opening. I came up with a great idea of doing it at night. When the bees are all asleep. It should be easy to go out there and just put some mesh in that opening. So it?s almost midnight and I go out. Mesh in hand. There?s about 15 to 20 bees sitting on the ledge or out the front. I?m thinking this is gonna be easy. I?ll just slide the mesh in. Well before I could even get the mesh to the opening, a surge bees started coming out. It was like they?ve been called the war. They could smell me. And I just had a shower too. They smelt me and they were coming out in huge numbers. So I backed away a little and they quickly calm down and went back in. So in my stupidity, I thought I?ll push the mesh in now really quick while there?s hardly any bees there. I never got the mesh in. They attacked me like crazy in the dark. I was lucky only got one sting in my shoulder.
When I got near the entrance before they went crazy, I was amazed at the noise coming from inside the box. You could hear all those bees in there flapping their wings. I had been quite concerned with the robber bees earlier that my hive was dead or had no queen.
So I learnt one thing tonight. If you think you can go to your hives in the dark and do any work you?re kidding yourself.
My question to those experienced just a little bit more than me😂 is this. Could all the drones mean anything. Am I wrong thinking because there was no pollen on any bees that they were robber bees.
I?m thinking suiting up tomorrow to go and have a look inside for the first time in six months. Have no idea what I?m looking for and if I find queen cells, is this a good time for me to separate my frames that are all stuck together. Because if I accidentally kill the Queen, It won?t be a problem.
Do you know what orientation flights look like? It could have been orientation for new fliers.
Guitarman.
Don't open the hive if you don't know what you are looking for.
Ask somebody with more experience to help you out.
Robbing in September would be very unusual here. This is the time when there is plenty of food around - no need to rob.
The drones - a new one to me.
It sounds to me like your bees have swarmed.
if you are opening up the hive, look for queen cells.
Check for brood at all stages of development.
Much honey stored?
Report back....
A huge amount of activity is usually robbing. A large amount might be robbing or orientation flights. Bees fighting is pretty good evidence that robbing is taking place, but sometimes there doesn't seem to be any robbing. Robbers are frantic. Local residents are not. Robbers will be trying to get in every crack. Locals will be going in the entrance.
Welcome back, Guitarman! :happy: Yes, doing anything with bees at night is risky business! I agree with max2 that it might be a good idea for you to find a mentor who can help you out. Opening the colony to take stock of the situation is probably a good idea, but it might be more informative if you had someone with a little bit of experience could help you understand what you are looking at and what to expect for your upcoming season as far as colony growth, the timing of flows, etc. If you don't have access to a mentor and want to go ahead with the inspection yourself, maybe you could film the inspection or at least take some pictures and post them here, them maybe we could help you sort through the situation a little better.
Wonderful news re-my hive. Really bad news re-varroa and other people?s hives in Sydney.
I fixed my hive. By myself. I opened it. And it was full of honey. Not full of brood like it usually is.Only 2 frames had a little brood. I took the opportunity knowing queen won?t be in the honey frames. I took a large knife and cut through the mess very slowly and gently and pulled frame after frame out. I now have ten new frames in that box at last. And about 30 kg of honey to extract when I get a chance.
For all Sydney people, experiencing varroa for the first time. Today I went and helped an 86-year-old beekeeper who was going to help me with my hive. I only met him about a week ago. He had six hives that he wanted to go and empty the supers on. When we arrived at the location. His two best hives which were triple high were dead. The others were doubles. One was looking ok but the others weren?t very active. The one looking okay the super was full and we took that. But the Varroa has killed his best and strongest hives and I suspect he?ll lose a few more even though he?s going to buy formic pro and put it in tomorrow try save those remaining weak hives. The pupae when I dug them out had varroa on them very alive. Some having 3 mites in the one cell. Pupae all dead of course. First time I?ve seen the varroa and the first time he?s seen it too. Took his strongest hives down very quick.
I?m buying formic pro as well. I?m certain my hive has varroa. Im sure all Sydney has it now. I?m going to treat it. I hate the idea of killing so many bees to test the count but I probably should do so. The big problem we have is you can?t use formic pro over 29?C and it is often over 30? for the whole summer. I?m not sure how we meant to treat varroa in the middle of summer if needed.
Sorry to hear about those losses. I was wondering...my understanding is that the temps are only important for the first 2 or 3 days. Could the strips be left out in the open for those first days and installed after they dissipated a little?
Nice job, Guitarman! Way to go! :happy:
Quote from: Guitarman on October 05, 2024, 01:41:57 PM
Not full of brood like it usually is.Only 2 frames had a little brood.
Coming off winter, I would assume the colony wouldn't be very large yet, but this sounds like a very small brood nest to me. Did you happen to notice if you had eggs or young larvae? I'm wondering if you still have a laying queen.
Quote from: Guitarman on October 05, 2024, 01:41:57 PM
I now have ten new frames in that box at last.
Do those new frames that you put in there in place of the honey frames have drawn comb, foundation, or are they just completely blank? We just want to make sure they don't make a mess of things this time.
Quote from: Guitarman on October 05, 2024, 01:41:57 PM
First time I?ve seen the varroa and the first time he?s seen it too. Took his strongest hives down very quick.
Taking down the biggest strongest hives really fast is typical of varroa. I just had it happen with my largest colony. They were in 7 mediums at the height of summer, and today I put the handful of remaining bees in the freezer. :sad:
Quote from: Guitarman on October 05, 2024, 01:41:57 PM
I?m buying formic pro as well. I?m certain my hive has varroa. Im sure all Sydney has it now. I?m going to treat it. I hate the idea of killing so many bees to test the count but I probably should do so. The big problem we have is you can?t use formic pro over 29?C and it is often over 30? for the whole summer. I?m not sure how we meant to treat varroa in the middle of summer if needed.
I use FormicPro at times, and I'm using some right now actually. I would not recommend using it if it's even close to the recommended maximum temperature. It's potent stuff and very temperature sensitive, and many people report queen supersedure, high brood mortality, and even absconding when using it in warmer temps. I've never used it above 80F/28C and I haven't had any issues personally, but the bees are always more upset by it and there is always more brood mortality when it's warmer. I've used it successfully in temps as low as highs around 60F/15.5C. I particularly like it as a treatment because it penetrates the comb to kill the varroa in the brood, it's honey super safe, and it also takes out any bees who are sick. But I wouldn't recommend it as a midsummer treatment. Not sure what else is available to you in Australia. I personally just don't treat at the height of summer, as varroa populations aren't likely to peak then anyway with the way our flows are timed.
I would recommend doing a mite check before and after a treatment to check the efficacy. I don't like killing bees to do a mite test either, so I do a sugar roll instead of an alcohol wash. You'll still kill some likely, but not all of them. Just multiply your results by 1.3, since the sugar roll is less accurate.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on October 05, 2024, 01:51:17 PM
Sorry to hear about those losses. I was wondering...my understanding is that the temps are only important for the first 2 or 3 days. Could the strips be left out in the open for those first days and installed after they dissipated a little?
The temps are most important for the first few days, but they are still important for the duration of the treatment. And the trouble is those first couple of days are when you are getting the best kill, so it seems like a waste to me, and FormicPro isn't cheap. You'd also have to be very careful about where you set them out as the vapors are very dangerous to breathe in for people and mammals.
15th
Taking down the biggest strongest hives really fast is typical of varroa. I just had it happen with my largest colony. They were in 7 mediums at the height of summer, and today I put the handful of remaining bees in the freezer. :sad:
Sad indeed. How do you clean up the frames in the 7 mediums?
In our subtropical climate it is impossible to store frames in the open - Moths would have a field day.
I guess it would be OK if you have hives which need supering up?
I have just finished taking 1/2 T of honey off. The second round this season.
Unlike most of you in the US, I only have one or two honey supers on top of the broodbox.
When these are full I extraxct the honey and back go the frames to be filled up again.
Point: when we get varroa, we don't have 7 supers to clean up.
I use all mediums, so this colony had 3 boxes of brood and 4 supers. But that was in like July, and this is not typical for me, this colony was massive. I had taken 2 supers of honey off in August, so they were in 5 boxes when I noticed the problem last week, and I condensed them to 2 boxes. I wasn't sure if they still had a queen or not, so I let them go for another week to see if they'd have brood, but they didn't when I checked them today. This happened very quickly, because we have trouble with moths too, and hive beetles, and all the comb was pristine last week. Today they did have some beetle damage, but only on one frame. To clean up a deadout or a situation like this, I'll just freeze all the frames to kill all the pests, then cut out and toss any comb that has been destroyed. Drawn blanks are stored in tightly stacked extra bee boxes in my garage, sometimes with mothballs if it seems like it's a bad year for moths or a warm winter, and frames with pollen or honey in them I store in plastic bins. That keeps them safe from beetles, moths, and mice.
Close up of comb. Are the holes in caps entry or exit holes varroa
And the pupae from one of the cells.
I know you USA guys have had it for a long time but this is our first encounter. And it?s a reality check for us.
Try again
Quote from: Guitarman on October 05, 2024, 06:55:34 PM
Close up of comb. Are the holes in caps entry or exit holes varroa
Yes, I believe so. Those pinholes are typical of an advanced varroa infestation.
I?m hearing reports about Formic Pro causing issues if the varroa counts are high. Losses of queens and many bees can be a consequence of using FP treatment in this type of situation. Talk to your supplier and listen to what they have to say. If bees have numerous perforations in their bodies due to varroa, formic acid can then enter into the bees body with fatal results.
I am a newbee and only used it once but when I did, I got a quick shot of dead bees and larvae on the front porch. After that, they seemed to recover but the hive died out anyway. I have no solid reason for their collapse.
I just did an alcohol wash on my hive. I think I counted 36 mites. And I only had 2/3 of half a cup of bees. I?m surprised my hive is still alive. I put the formic pro in. We have a couple of nice cool days in Sydney at the moment. It could be my last opportunity before autumn. Hoping the Queen survives because she?s not young. And the treatment is known to knock off older queens and that?s from the manufacturer. And I pray I didn?t alcohol wash the Queen. I had a quick scan on the frame but my untrained eye didn?t see anything other than drones being larger. And it was very windy and I didn?t want the hive open too long in the wind. So I bit the bullet and did the shake and just scooped what I could get. I have to admit, I wasn?t even sure if I even had a mite problem before the wash. I have no doubt now.
The bees are bearding within an hour of treatment. I believe this is normal but it?s quite cool today. I almost think most these are on the outside. I wouldn?t think there would be too many left inside.
Sorry to hear that Guitarman. Keep us posted as to the results of the treatment. If your bees make it through the Formic blast, keep an eye on varroa levels as the little blighters will hit you again in a short period of time. Some areas in Sydney are being hit big time even a week after initial treatments.
The legs on the thing in the picture that has a pupae and one thing on it, look too long for Varroa. Way too long.
I seem to go from one problem to another. It?s been 2 1/2 weeks since I put the formic pro in. I open the hive up today and thought I?d look for some brood because I know I can?t spot the Queen. Every frame I pulled was either capped honey or the cells were half full of nectar. I didn?t see one pupae. And I?ve seen what the little eggs look like in my friends hive. And I certainly didn?t have any of them. Every cell had nectar in it about half filled in top and bottom boxes.
I?m certain my queen has died during the formic pro. Or I killed it when I did the alcohol wash. One of the other. My problem is I have heaps of bees in this hive still. But I have no queen. And I?m told if I order a queen I could be waiting weeks and weeks that there?s some sort of big delays at the moment.
So I will see if I can get a queen but I?m working on the assumption I can?t get one in the next few weeks. So this is where I need your help. If I went round my friends place and he gave me a frame with some new laid eggs in it, would they feed it royal jelly and make a queen. My friend believes that won?t work. That there has to be a queen cell on the frame. I thought they could make a queen if they had day old eggs.
Second question. My friend took me today to catch a swarm. I got this swarm and I have it in a nuke box. Can I use that swarm to requeen my one and only hive. If I took the frames out of the nuke and put them and the rest of the bees into my hive would that work or will my hive kill that queen.
This colony is still very strong and active. I would hate to see it die especially now it?s varroa free.
Appreciate any advice.
Does no one use Thymol anymore? Also temp dependant, but a much gentler treatment.
Quote from: Guitarman on October 26, 2024, 09:36:05 AM
If I went round my friends place and he gave me a frame with some new laid eggs in it, would they feed it royal jelly and make a queen. My friend believes that won?t work. That there has to be a queen cell on the frame. I thought they could make a queen if they had day old eggs.
Workers that are hopelessly queenless (meaning they don't have any brood left to make a queen) will
absolutely make a queen from eggs donated from another colony. I've done this many times. Workers can make a queen from a larva (not an egg even) that is 3 days old or younger. So an egg of any age (the egg stage usually lasts 3 days), and a larvae 3 days old or younger are all good candidates for new queens.
Quote from: Guitarman on October 26, 2024, 09:36:05 AM
Second question. My friend took me today to catch a swarm. I got this swarm and I have it in a nuke box. Can I use that swarm to requeen my one and only hive. If I took the frames out of the nuke and put them and the rest of the bees into my hive would that work or will my hive kill that queen.
Combining them is another good option. Cover the top box of your original colony with a sheet of newspaper and put the frames from the nuc into another box on top of the newspaper. By the time the bees chew through the newspaper, they will be used to each other and the bees from the old colony should accept the new queen.
Quote from: Kathyp on October 26, 2024, 11:41:25 AM
Does no one use Thymol anymore? Also temp dependant, but a much gentler treatment.
I'm not sure that Thymol is available in Australia.
Quote from: The15thMember on October 26, 2024, 12:08:04 PM
Quote from: Guitarman on October 26, 2024, 09:36:05 AM
If I went round my friends place and he gave me a frame with some new laid eggs in it, would they feed it royal jelly and make a queen. My friend believes that won?t work. That there has to be a queen cell on the frame. I thought they could make a queen if they had day old eggs.
Workers that are hopelessly queenless (meaning they don't have any brood left to make a queen) will absolutely make a queen from eggs donated from another colony. I've done this many times. Workers can make a queen from a larva (not an egg even) that is 3 days old or younger. So an egg of any age (the egg stage usually lasts 3 days), and a larvae 3 days old or younger are all good candidates for new queens.
Is it possible to take one of the frames out of the nuke. Would that queen be laying eggs straight away in the drawn out frames we put in there. Or would I have to wait sometime for that to happen. Also how long have I to do all this. How long before the bees die if they?re queenless. Or should I grab a frame eggs from my friend. Would be so easy to grab one from the nuke I have here next to my hive. If that?s possible.
A queen from a swarm is likely laying already, provided she is mated. It will take a while for the colony to die from being queenless, as all the workers will have to live out their natural lifespans. However, the immediate risk is that the workers will start laying eggs, which being unfertilized will only be drones, and at that point the colony likely won't accept or make another queen. If you want to grab a frame of eggs from the nuc, that should work fine.
Thanks so much 15th member. I really appreciate your help.
The site has been down for a day I think. I?ve been in panic mode here trying to figure why I couldn?t get to the site.
I have a big delivery coming today of frames and boxes and allsorts of knickknacks from the bees supply people. With Varroa here now in Australia, I certainly need to have at least three hives so I can have some chance of keeping bees. Having just the one hive too difficult with Varroa. I think you always need to have a couple up your sleeve because your chances of loss are so much higher now.
At the moment I just want to see if I can get a queen back into that hive and not lose them. My priority.
Quote from: Guitarman on October 27, 2024, 08:28:11 PM
Thanks so much 15th member. I really appreciate your help.
The site has been down for a day I think. I?ve been in panic mode here trying to figure why I couldn?t get to the site.
No problem, it's what we're here for. We have been having some technical issues lately, and we're doing our best to handle them.
Quote from: Guitarman on October 27, 2024, 08:28:11 PM
With Varroa here now in Australia, I certainly need to have at least three hives so I can have some chance of keeping bees. Having just the one hive too difficult with Varroa. I think you always need to have a couple up your sleeve because your chances of loss are so much higher now.
I would always recommend at least two hives to a beginner. It's much easier to have at least one other colony to fall back on, and I think three doesn't sound like a bad idea given the situation you guys are encountering with varroa being new.
Don?t forget about your swarm. They will most likely be carrying varroa as well. It would be a good idea to test and treat them if need be.
I?ve just taken delivery of a box of formic pro today. I do worry about the nuc being so small. They say 1 strip. In some of the hives I?ve looked at belonging to other people you can see the Varroa on the bees with many having two and three on them. I was surprised if you took your time and looked at all the bees on a frame very carefully you can see the varroa on their backs. These are heavily infested hives. No need to do an alcohol wash.
I ran my eye over the swarm bees and I couldn?t spot one on any of the bees. So I?m hoping they?re not too heavily laden with varroa. Once their settled certainly will do a wash. My priority at the moment is to steal a frame of eggs from them and put it in my queenless hive. I also need to buy a marker pen and try and find the Queens and Mark them. If I?m going to be doing alcohol washes regularly, I need to make sure I don?t wash my queen.
I don't want to start a panic, but the parasite that picture has too long of legs for a Varroa. It looks like a tropilaelaps to me, but it's too out of focus to be very certain of anything.
It is hard to see anything clearly on the photo Michael. I can only see what appears to be varroa and some hive debris. What part of the photo is a concern to you?
Legs. Varroa have such short legs you usually can't see them unless they are upside down and then they are shorter than that.
Are you talking about the picture of the alcohol wash, Michael? I can blow that up with good resolution on my phone, and all I see are varroa mites. As I'm sure you know, the tropilaelaps mites have their heads on the short side of their oval-shaped body, and varroa's heads are on the long side of the oval, and all those mites have visible mouthparts on the long side of the oval. I personally can see varroa mites' legs sometimes, even when they are not upside-down, and I feel it's easier to see their legs when the mites are dead for some reason. Maybe because they are limp, essentially.
It's too blurry for me to tell, but Varroa legs are too short to see at all unless they are upside down and they don't stick out..
It?s definitely varroa. What I think has happened, I had to reduce the pixels so it would upload. And when the conversion happens, I wouldn?t be surprised if there?s some distortion of the image. It was a very Hi-Resolution picture and had to be dropped down to very low kbs to be acceptable for upload. I?m sure that?s all it is. The legs aren?t that pronounced in the original.
Okay you ready for my new problem. I still have a hive with no queen. And I couldn?t find any eggs in the nuke the other day. And then I read on another forum that sometimes the queen doesn?t lay for up to 4 weeks after a formic pro treatment. So don?t assume the Queens dead.
So today I suited up again. My poor bees must be getting sick of me going into the brood box. I sat down and watched a dozen YouTube videos on how to spot the Queen. I got familiar with what I was looking for. So armed with all that, I went back into the brood box. I checked every frame so carefully and couldn?t spot a queen anywhere. I also couldn?t find any brood anywhere. She has to be dead. It?s almost been four weeks since I treated them.
Next problem. After watching all those videos, I decided to go to the nuke. I was determined to find a queen today. And I wanted eggs to put into the other hive anyway. Now the nuke only has four drawn frames and one blank frame. Surely I could find a queen. After carefully inspecting the frames, no queen. Even worse no eggs. I can?t remember exactly when I got the nuc or the swarm, but it would?ve been about 10 days ago at least.
So now I?m starting to doubt myself. Is it me. I couldn?t possibly have two queenless hives. I?ve seen eggs before in my friends hive. All that?s happening in the nuke is there cleaning the frames up and they?re filling in with Honey. No eggs, and I couldn?t find the queen. Mind you, the frames are pretty loaded with bees in the nuc. She could?ve been buried under bees. But the lack of any laying activity is now really worrying me. Or is 10 days too early to be looking for eggs in the nuc.
Yes, 10 days can bee too early to look for eggs. Inspecting too often can cause the bees to kill the queen especially if she have any brood to prove that she is a good queen. We normally wait 3 to 4 weeks for a new queen to settle in.
You say the bees are back filling the brood chamber. That is a sign that ther are queen less. When you have a new queen, the bees normally clean out the brood chamber.
Jim Altmiller
https://bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#nobroodnoqueen
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on November 01, 2024, 09:24:07 AM
Yes, 10 days can bee too early to look for eggs. We normally wait 3 to 4 weeks for a new queen to settle in.
This nuc isn't a split though, Jim, it's a captured swarm. So 10 days should be plenty provided the queen was mated, and even if she was a virgin that could be enough time to get mated and start laying.
Quote from: BeeMaster2 on November 01, 2024, 09:24:07 AM
You say the bees are back filling the brood chamber. That is a sign that ther are queen less. When you have a new queen, the bees normally clean out the brood chamber.
I do agree though, I think it sounds like both colonies are probably queenless, Guitarman. Perhaps your mentor can give you a frame of eggs or two.
A number of things could?ve happened. One being the possibility of the queen being injured during capture and unable to lay. Or she could have been a virgin swarm queen (Which occasionally happens as is my understanding ), and indeed needed more time to start laying. I have seen it take up to two weeks for a virgin queen to transform to a laying queen.(Though 10 days
should have been enough for a flying virgin).
Either way, or perhaps other possibilities; As Jim well pointed out:
QuoteBeemaster2
You say the bees are back filling the brood chamber. That is a sign that ther are queen less. When you have a new queen, the bees normally clean out the brood chamber.
Thanks guys.
Really appreciate your wisdom experience and knowledge.
When we captured this swarm, I used the bucket on the stick trick. I poured them into the new Nuc box and my 86 year old mentor slammed the lid down before I could stop him. There were piles of bees on top of the frames and I heard the crunch of bees. I was concerned immediately he could have crunched the Queen. He is 86 years old and only been doing this for 5 years. I remained optimistic that the probability of that happening was very remote. I?m not so sure now.
I can buy a queen and have her here in about six days. My hive would?ve been queenless for about 4 1/2 weeks at that stage if she died during formic pro treatment. I?m starting to worry that putting eggs in there might take too long for them to succeed. I?m also worried is it too long now to even put a replacement queen in there at 4 half weeks. There?s still lots of bees in there as of today. I can see the number dropping but there?s still a lot as of today. I?ve never done this before, but I?m guessing there?s a delay in introducing the Queen. Does she stay in her little capsule for a few days so they accept her? We could end up at five weeks. Am I wasting my money buying a queen after 5 weeks queenless.
The question is not how long have they been without a queen, but how long have they been without brood. Yes, the colony has dwindled in size, but a well-mated laying queen should get the colony back on track provided the population isn't extremely low, which you are indicating that it isn't. The only real problem is if the workers start laying, because they won't accept a queen at that point. Open brood, however, will prevent the workers ovaries from developing. If you decide to just purchase a queen, I'd still ask your mentor for some open brood, since that will also give the population a boost, along with keeping the workers from laying. You may have to go in and remove queen cells, if they build any, before you introduce your purchased queen. The few extra days that the delayed release of the mated queen will take is neither here nor there.
What I might be inclined to do in your instance is combine the nuc with your full-sized colony. That will increase the population as well, and you'll only have to worry about getting one colony queenright. Once the situation is resolved and the colony is built up, then you could split them and be back to two colonies. Or maybe you'll catch another swarm or two.
Quote from: Guitarman on November 01, 2024, 01:42:40 PM
I poured them into the new Nuc box and my 86 year old mentor slammed the lid down before I could stop him. There were piles of bees on top of the frames and I heard the crunch of bees. I was concerned immediately he could have crunched the Queen.
I'm sure this is probably clear to you, but just to reiterate what you are already thinking, there is never a reason to slam down any equipment when working with bees. All your movements should always be deliberate and controlled.
What Member said x 2.
The sooner you can give them a frame of open brood and some eggs the sooner you'll know the status and the sooner you'll head off any laying workers.
I second that Michael, that would be my plan of attack 2 frames of open brood, one with plenty of eggs and just hatched eggs. Will keep the laying workers at bay, and give them something to pull a queen if needed
I?ll give you an update. Now don?t laugh. I can hear you laughing already. I went over to my 86-year-old friends house and I went through his three hives looking for some brood. It?s a little difficult with my dear friend helping me. I think he forgets why we are there. He kept putting the brood frames back in before I could check them for eggs. It was so difficult. And he seem to forget after every minute or two. It was quite frustrating for me.
Out of the three hives, I spotted the Queen in two of them. Which I got excited about because I?ve never seen a queen in real life before. I was a little bit mesmerised and in awe seeing one in real life for the first time. I checked the majority of the brood frames and couldn?t find eggs anywhere. I thought for certain they would be on the frame with the Queen, and I was having trouble stopping my dear friend who kept trying to point the Queen out to me even though I had shown him the queen to start with. Almost killing her with his hive tool and his unsteady hand. I actually had to yell at him to stop pointing at her that he was going to kill her. We had a couple of very close misses. He is such a wonderful and kind man. And has a huge heart. But I think he?s past his best days of beekeeping and I suspect I will be looking after and inheriting his apiary and equipment within 12 months.
I never spotted one egg. There was lots of brood at various stages but no eggs. I looked everywhere but couldn?t find those tiny white eggs which I have seen before. So I never got any eggs to put in my hive. My hive is still queenless and starting to look a little weak now.
The upside.
My dear old friend got a couple of calls for swarms this week. I grabbed them both. And I made sure he didn?t use his heavy-handed crush them in the process of catching them. Both are doing very well and are looking very good in the nucs. So I feel a lot better that at least have some hives and I won?t be hiveless.
Today my dear friend took me to his other hives to collect any supers full of honey. The minute we pulled up in the car, I told him they?re all dead. All four hives were dead. The varroa had killed them all. I warned him last time when we lost a couple of hives that we had to do something about it before he lost them all. It?s not his fault totally. I bought a 30 pack of formic pro and we had it for a couple of weeks now. But the weather?s been too hot. It?s been near the upper end of the do not use scale. It?s very difficult to treat with formic Pro in summer in Sydney. We also bought the other chemical, the one you can?t have your Honey supers on. I told him we need to remove the Honey supers and we can treat them weeks ago when they were still very strong. But he didn?t want to remove the Honey supers. The supers were almost fully capped. They needed just another week. Those couple of weeks cost him all his hives at this location. At this stage with my new nucs, I probably have more hives than him now.
As we went through the dead hives, I pulled a couple of capped queen cells out. I have no idea if they?re still alive or not but there was so much varroa even on the comb, I really don?t want to put them in my hive. I?m worried there?s varroa in the Queen cell as well. One of the queen cells has a pinhole which I?m certain is the varroa. I doubt it?s a queen about the break through. One of the young bees that had hatched recently, I counted seven mites on it. I saw four and five on others. For those of you in Queensland. I don?t know what you guys are gonna do when Varroa gets up there. Hopefully they will have approved treatments that you can use in the hot weather with supers. Or you guys are going to be decimated.
I?ve currently got the Queen cells pinned to a noticeboard in my kitchen. No I didn?t put the pin through the cell where the queen is. I did that because I read it?s important they stay upright and not lay them on their side.
If they?re any good, can I just leave them in a container or something and will they emerge and then I can put them into Queen excluder and put them in the hive? Or do they need to be kept at a certain temperature and humidity. If that?s the case, they?re probably dead but I did see some bees emerging from their cells that were well and truly alive in the dead hive. Gave me hope queens maybe still alive.
Well, if it makes you feel better, Guitarman, I'm not laughing. :smile: Sounds like a challenging situation with your mentor. Those queen cells are almost certainly not viable, as developing bees need to be kept around 95F/35C, and if somehow they are alive, they are likely heavily infested with varroa. If the new nucs seem to have good laying queens though, you can still do some combining to get your apiary queenright.
All I can add is that sometimes I have to look pretty hard and hold the frames up into the light before I can see eggs. Larvae, on the other hand, are much easier to spot and are indications of a viable queen.
Quote from: Terri Yaki on November 09, 2024, 04:37:41 AM
All I can add is that sometimes I have to look pretty hard and hold the frames up into the light before I can see eggs. Larvae, on the other hand, are much easier to spot and are indications of a viable queen.
A pocket magnification glass will do wonders in that area. Turns human eyes into Hawkeyes! lol 😁
Thanks for that information.
I wasn?t keen on those Queen cells.
I?m hoping on Monday to get delivery of a marker pen and a little gadget that holds the queen. Then I?m going To try and find and mark the Queen in the nuc that?s about two weeks old now. Before I combine them. My thinking is, after losing my last queen due to the varroa treatment. It will be a lot easier if the queen is marked. To check after treatment that she is alive. Also so you don?t alcohol wash her in the future. Unmarked is just too risky.
I have a question.
When I add the nuc to the queenless hive. Because I need to use paper to separate the two. Would I remove the super and excluder and shake any bees on frames of super down into former brood box now almost full of honey.
Then do I put my sheet newspaper, another box on top and move the nuc frames plus 5 more into that box. Shake what?s left in, put excluder on top and super back on top. I end up with two brood boxes.
Or do I put the nuc bees in a box on the base and put excluder and newspaper on them and then the former brood and super on top. End up with one brood box.
Which raises a new question, I was always told you could only move bees a little bit each day unless you?re moving them long distances. When I move the nuc bees maybe 6 metres to the other hive will that cause a problem. Will they try and go back to their old spot.
It doesn't matter that much honestly. What I would do is just put the paper on top of the top box of the big hive, jab one or two small slits in the paper with my hive tool to get the bees started, and then put an empty box on the paper. In that new box put all the frames from the nuc and whatever extra frames you need to fill out the box. Then put the lid on top of that. This way the nuc bees are trapped in the top, and by the time they chew through the paper and meet their new housemates, they will likely reorient when they reach the hive entrance for the first time. Once the colonies are combined, then you can rearrange the hive so that it's convenient for you to inspect. Any foragers that happen to be out when you move the nuc may be confused for a bit, but if you have a flow on they should be allowed to enter the other colonies once they realize their hive has been moved.
Thanks 15th.
Another question not related.
I?ve caught three swarms in the last couple of weeks. One swarm stayed in the nuc box no trouble. Another swarm took off the next day but I saw it happen and chased them and recaptured them. Before I put them back in the same box, I hosed it all out and cleaned it and put different frames in there. They?ve been in there now for a couple of days and seem very happy. The third took off after two days today when I wasn?t present and their now gone.
Is this normal behaviour of captured swarms or do they not like something about their new homes I?m giving them.
That can be normal. Swarms are in the middle of debating new home locations when you unceremoniously shove them into a box. So some colonies are like, "Hey, look at this place! This seems pretty neat! Now we don't have to figure out a place to live!" and they happily set up shop. But some colonies are like, "What is this place?! This isn't anything like we were looking for! Whose idea was this anyway?!" and they promptly return to the branch to continue their own debate about prospective home sites. :grin:
The easiest way to get colonies to stay is to give them a frame of open brood, something that's obviously not an option for you at the moment, unfortunately. A colony that finds babies in a box will rarely abandon them.
Oh wow, thanks 15th.
I didn?t know that. That?s handy to keep up my sleeve. Will also let my mentor know. A frame of open brood. I haven?t read that or come across that.
We have a couple of cool days here in Sydney. Trying to wake my mentor up so I can go and do an alcohol wash on his remaining hives and treat them for varroa if needed. We might not get another window of cool weather this summer.