What is the best way to reduce my colonies down to 2 deep boxes for the winter when they are still collecting necter and still have frames to cap in the one super I left on after taking full ones off? Last fall I returned the extracted supers to the top of the 2 deep brood boxes and they proceeded to put more honey into the frames instead of cleaning them. So I left them on over the winter which made the colonies 3 deep high. I lost 2 of my 3 colonies which I now believe is because I left the supers on and not a mite wipe out of the hives as I did treat all 3 hives.
What do I do with supers that are not capped when the cold weather arrives?
Oh, I have so many bees in the hives now that after I removed the supers to extract, they are bearding on 2 hives.
Thanx!
Henry
Howdy
This is not a hard problem if you got so many bees in the hive let them keep the honey in the super. And if you want to take it off then put it in the freezer and feed it back to them this spring but if you are still having a flow going on then i would let them be they know what to do and when the first frost come the queen will stop laying and then they will go into thier cluster.
Tom
Forcing them down into 2 deeps is not hard using either the Porter bee escapes or an escape board. Just put the escape between the brood boxes and the super(s) the bees will go down to cluster together at night leaving the super at least 95% empty. The remaining bees can then be blown or brushed off of the frames.
Capped frames can be extracted and the uncapped can be stored/frozen for spring feed back.
It's early. They may make a fall honey crop yet.
Brian, MB,
What's an ideal to work towards regarding optimal number of brood boxes for overwintering when using 8 frame mediums?
This week I start to press bees to winter boxes. Some will be have two and some one box.
I take all honey frames away and extract. Brood frames I put in lowest box. Then pollen frames asides and clean white frames or foundation in edges. Foundation make air circulation better.
After that I bring hive to cottage yard and feed them with sugar.
How many deeps for winter, it depends how big hive is now. They have never needed 3 boxes for winter even if they have 9 boxed in the middle of summer.
If hive has 4 boxes in summer it is quite sure that 1 box is enouigh for winter.
If one box is not enough and bees cannot go in during week I give another box to bottom.
It is quite easy to calculate how much colony needs room. If they have had 8 frames brood, winterball will be 8 frames. If hive has had in the fall 12 frames of brood, it needs 2 deeps.
It is same with mediums. Winterball will be size of brood area.
Extra space is harmfull for bees.
.
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Zoot,
I maintain four medium 8 frame boxes year around. I suffer little loss due to starvation and find that the bees still have enough stores to begin in the spring. 4 medium 8's are about equal to 2 deep 10's. I think the difference is survival rate has to due with the bees being able to dedicate the 4th medium entirely to stores plus whats on the other frames.
Quote from: Brian D. BrayZoot,
I maintain four medium 8 frame boxes year around. I suffer little loss due to starvation .
"8 frame boxes year around" - that is strange!
If you have uninsulated boxes colony will consume 50% more food during winter.
4 medium boxes are a lot. Each may contais 30 lbs food and it makes ...how much . 3 mediums are equal to 2 Langstroths.
If you have normal colony 2 mediums is enough for it in winter.
I use sugar 40 lbs in biggest colonies when I have styrofoam boxes. That food last from September to end of May. This system needs no wrapping.
Finsky,
Here in the states different widths of hives have been used: 8, 10, & 12 frame. The twelve frame was actually an import from Canada and was called an Imperial hive. It has pretty much lost popularity due to its being cumbersome and heavy. The 10 frame is most popular and would be called the standard. The 8 frame popular for those who want and require less stress on their back and extremeties. Its a little narrower, which for me has its advantages as the 10 frame is to wide to handle from a wheelchair. I use medium boxes for the same reason, they are the maxium depth I hand handle from a wheelchair.
4 medium supers in 8 frame is almost exactly the same size, square inch wise, as 2 deep boxes in 10 frames. The difference in physical size requires a little mental adjustment when comparing the 2 hive sizes.
I have 10 and 9 frame boxes. Medium size are for 9 frames and I use in supers 8 frames.
I'll try it this way. A 10 frame hive is roughly 16 3/4 inches in width and 19 7/8 inches in length. An 8 frame hive is roughly 13 7/8 inches in width and 19 7/8 inches in length. In the USA when we talk of an 8 frame hive we usually mean a hive body that will only accept 8 frames not the practice of using 8 frames in a 10 frame box.
>What's an ideal to work towards regarding optimal number of brood boxes for overwintering when using 8 frame mediums?
From my point of view it depends on the size of the cluster. The Italians tend to have a large cluster and, with a large cluster, I'd have about four eight frame mediums. With a smaller cluster I might only have three or even two. The Ferals and the Carniolans are much more frugal and take less space.
Yes, my eight frame boxes are exactly 19 7/8" by 13 3/4" by 6 5/8". Ten frame medium boxes are exactly 19 7/8" by 16 1/4" by 6 /58". The eight frame boxes are 2 1/2" narrower. I have nine frames spaced 1 1/4" (32mm) in the brood nests of the "eight frame" boxes.
MB,
When I originally ordered my 8 frames boxes from Western Bee they were out of stock on the 13 3/4 width so they sent me 13 7/8 width which they say is used in the south. I had bought the boxes when I started back up into beekeeping this last time around as much as a template to make my own as any other. As a result all my equipment is 1/4 inch wider than it needs to be.
Normally this time my hives are almost without brood. But this August we got exceptionally much honeydew and in most hives I have one whole box capped brood. A month ago lowest boxes were full of pollen and now pollen are away.
I must put in every hive 2 boxes that they may store winter food in upper box.
2-box hive takes during one week it's winterfood but it needs 2 weeks good weather to cap syrup. What ever happens after then, my hives will be ready for winter.
How to force bees in lower box: PUT hive in winter position, move brood down and shake bees in front of hive. If you put newspaper sheets in front of hive bees walk easily back to hive.
We usually don't find hives broodless here until sometime in October. But I don't seem to have a flow right now, so I'm not sure what will happen. There's goldenrod blooming but it's not making nectar, apparently.
As far as "forcing" the bees:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopfightingbees
QuoteWhat is the best way to reduce my colonies down to 2 deep boxes for the winter when they are still collecting necter and still have frames to cap in the one super I left on after taking full ones off?
i was facing the same problem. here is the advice i was given and it seems to be working well so far.
i had 3 full deeps and 2 shallow for honey.
i was instructed to take my honey, make sure the queen was in the two bottom boxes, and then place a queen excluder between the 2nd and 3rd boxes. this would allow the brood in the box 3 to be raised, and allow the hive to use the honey in box 3 for fall feeding. when the weather gets cold (usually end of oct or so) i am to remove box 3 and leave the hive with two deeps for the winter.
so far, this approach has worked. i have my honey. the brood in box 3 is gone. they are doing fine on the food i left them.
i will have to watch and make sure that i super early in the spring if this queen starts laying next year, as she did this year. i also want to split this hive in the spring if it comes through the winter well.
Kathyp:
You were given good advise. That has been the recommended practice long before I got into beekeeping. My greatgrandfather used that method in the 20's & 30's according to my father.
Ok I really hate to bring this up but I want to know... :twisted: my boxes are all considered standard size here in Canada. THey measure16.5 inches width, 20 inches length, and 9.5 deep. What are these called? They can hold ten frames and I have always used ten or briefly nine frames because otherwise I got burr comb. What is the expected yield/hold of honey in a body this size? I have assumed these are what yall call deeps?
>my boxes are all considered standard size here in Canada. THey measure16.5 inches width, 20 inches length, and 9.5 deep.
More likely 16.24 inches by 19 7/8" by 9 5/8" deep. But some are as small as 9 1/4" deep.
> What are these called?
Deeps. Some just call it a "brood box" but you could use any box for brood. I use eight frame mediums for everything.
> They can hold ten frames and I have always used ten or briefly nine frames because otherwise I got burr comb. What is the expected yield/hold of honey in a body this size?
They weight 90 pounds or more full of honey. But, of course, some of that weight is the box and the frames. I would expect to get 70 pounds or more from one full of honey.
> I have assumed these are what yall call deeps?
Yes.
Standard 10 Frame boxes
Name(s) Depth Weight full of honey Uses (cmb=comb ext=extracted)
Jumbo, Dadant Deep 11 5/8" 100 - 110 pounds Brood
Deep, Langstroth Deep 9 5/8" 80 - 90 pounds Brood & Ext
Western Bee Supply? 7 5/8" 70 - 80 pounds Brood & Ext
Medium, Illinois, 3/4 6 5/8" 60 - 70 pounds Brood & Ext & Cmb
Shallow 5 ¾" or 5 11/16" 50 - 60 pounds Cmb
Extra Shallow, ½ 4 ¾" or 4 11/16" 40 - 50 pounds Cmb
Thanks Mr Bush!
I didn't want to piggyback this post but I now understand why my back hurts so bloody bad...Ive been lifting deeps all summer at the commercial apiary I work at. I also bought deeps from my instructor, because thats what he carries/uses, so I have them at home. I especially notice the need for smaller hive bodies inside my little cramped hive hut. Next year should be ok with enough space, or Ill look into smaller bodies. thanks. steve
Finsky.....
How do you feed the sugar to the bees after you take all honey off? Syrup or some other method?
Thanx for all the replies and info on my original question! I was happy to see a formula for determing how many deeps I should have for over wintering based on brood size. I am going to try that this year as I think last year I too much room with 3 deeps on each hive. I lost 2 of my 3. May have been mites, not sure as I did treat for them.
eohenry
Finsky.....
How do you feed the sugar to the bees after you take all honey off? Syrup or some other method?
Thanx for all the replies and info on my original question! I was happy to see a formula for determing how many deeps I should have for over wintering based on brood size. I am going to try that this year as I think last year I too much room with 3 deeps on each hive. I lost 2 of my 3. May have been mites, not sure as I did treat for them.
eohenry
I feed syrup, but these days doing a series of sugar shakes aides in feeding the bees as the bees make use of the powdered sugar they groom from themselves and each other. Use some type of internal feeder to prevent robbing and feed 1 gallon or more at a time. The bees will usually take a gallon in 2-4 days so frequent checks and refeeding is necessary. To winter over you want to force the bees into a honey bound condition. As the brood hatches the bees will backfill the comb with syrup.
Feed until the hive is full with very little brood space.