Can you determin from these photos if the QUEEN is gone?

jeffreym · June 14, 2007, 11:09:37 AM

I installed a new (and my first) hive last spring. Everything seemed fine throughout the Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter. They seemed to come through the Michigan winter just fine. There were several dead bees to be cleaned up, but things looked ok. Now I'm hoping that one of the dead bees was not the queen. I have opened the hive up 3 times this year and I can not find the clipped and marked queen. Until last week (current pictures on my web sight at www umich.edu/~jeffreym/15gifs ) I did not see any brood and they are putting up honey in the brood chamber, even with 2 honey supers on top. Suddenly, it looks like a "few" brood cells" are capped. I just do not know enough about it yet to diagnose it. I was wondering if someone could view some of these pictures and give me your opinion. Do you think there is a queen? Did they create a new queen? Why are they filling up the brood chamber with honey? Thanks, Jeff-

fishawk · June 14, 2007, 11:17:54 AM

Photos?

jeffreym · June 14, 2007, 11:26:04 AM

I put them up on my personal web site. paste into a browser... umich.edu/~jeffreym/15gifs Thanks for helping.

Robo · June 14, 2007, 11:54:04 AM

Either they superseded the old queen and the replacement has not started laying yet or they are queenless. Best way to tell is give them a frame with fresh eggs from another hive and see if they build queen cells.

jeffreym · June 14, 2007, 11:57:21 AM

So, Robo... It doesn't look good is what I'm hearing. Would I be wise to order a new queen (if I can still get one)? or is this a wait and see what happens thing? Should I be doing anything in particular? I am feeding.

Kathyp · June 14, 2007, 12:05:18 PM

in 3rd from bottom, is that an open queen cell? might they have made a queen that is not laying yet?

jeffreym · June 14, 2007, 12:07:45 PM

There were several of them, but I scrapped them off thinking they should not be there. I can still get a queen. Should I order one today?

fishawk · June 14, 2007, 12:14:36 PM

I agree with Kathyp looks like a queen cell in pic three and five . Looks like you could have had a swarm and the new queen has not started laying . Give it a week or so

jeffreym · June 14, 2007, 12:17:23 PM

Ok, I'll stand by for a week or so. Thanks for your help. Jeff-

Robo · June 14, 2007, 02:31:04 PM

Hold on a new queen until you are sure they are queenless, otherwise they will just kill the new queen and you threw your 20 bucks away. The easiest way to be certain is to give them a frame of fresh eggs from another hive. If after a couple of days, they don't make queen cells, they you probably have a new queen who hasn't started laying yet.

jeffreym · June 15, 2007, 11:43:13 AM

I couldn't stand it. I ordered another queen..... I was under the impression that having them create a new queen was a bad thing, genetics, etc. I was planning on making sure that there was no current queen and then hanging the new one in the lower brood chamber. Back to the books for me on this one....

ALSO, in the last picture, aren't the random cells in the center of the frame brood? If they are capped brood, doesn't that mean there is a queen?
Why are they depositing so much honey in the bood chambers, there is very little activity in the upper few honey supers?

Kathyp · June 15, 2007, 11:57:16 AM

that's ok. i just wouldn't kill a queen you find in the hive until you know they will accept the new one. remove the old one and see what happens.

IMHO the genetics argument is bogus unless there was something wrong with the queen you had. the main reasons that i see to order a new queen would be to get the hive going more quickly.

fishawk · June 15, 2007, 12:00:33 PM

Jeff , If you have a queen in the super now it's a new queen . If the thing about genetics is true all the bees in the world would be in trouble . I think someone wanted you to buy a queen. Ive looked at the pics a couple of times there is larve there .Any way lets us know what happens

jeffreym · June 15, 2007, 12:14:25 PM

Great, thanks, I feel better. I was reading about pulling the hive away from the bottom board (100 yards or so) and go through each frame brushing off the bees and building a "clean hive", then put it back into its original position. The plan being, that the worker bees know where the original location is and will show up again, but any egg laying workers (multiple eggs per cell) have never ventured outside and will not be able to find the hive, thus (assuming no other queen) the new queen has a better chance of making it. If none of this stuff works, I'll just let nature take it course. Thanks for your help, Jeff-

jeffreym · June 15, 2007, 12:16:50 PM

Will do Fishawk! I was unable to interrupt if there were egg cells (capped?) or not. The hives are 120 miles away. When the queen shows up I'll head up, with camera in hand. I'll follow up.

newbee101 · June 15, 2007, 11:59:27 PM

Your hive swarmed. There is nothing wrong with letting them make their own Queen.
I have made some fantastic queens from swarm cells.
Extract that honey andgive them back the comb. They need room to raise brood.
Do you use 1 deep or 2? What is your location? Did you feed this spring?

Michael Bush · June 16, 2007, 11:04:45 AM

There is no way to tell for sure if there is a queen if there are no eggs and no open brood. I'd give them a frame of open brood from another hive (if you have one) and wait and see. If they do have a virgin queen in there she should be laying within two weeks of when she emerged (usually, but could be as long as three with bad weather). If they don't start any cells, then you probably have a queen. If they do, then you proably don't. There's still the possibility that she will not successfully mate and make it back (car windsheilds, dragon flies, swallows etc.), so if you don't see eggs in two weeks I'd add another just in case.