swarming question

[kansas]

Hi all. New to this forum and have a question about pre-swarming behavior.  Started with a single hive body this year and three pounds of bees.  then, I added the second hive body a little late, after I noticed queen cells starting to be formed.  I cut out the cells and have been continuing to cut the new ones for about two weeks.

I added the second hive body about a day after the first cutting of the cells, and they are still forming queen cells.  from the get go I noticed there were no new eggs and there still aren't.

someone I spoke with said that about ten days b/f swarming the resident queen ceases to lay.  if this is true, how much longer will my queen continue to be non laying and when will i need to draw the line between there being no uncapped larvae for them to turn into a queen and the queen initiating egg laying.  when do they get the point, when all of the capped brood has hatched?

I still haven't located my queen- suppouse i should do this tonite but, its hard! 

[wtiger]

Take what I say with a grain of salt; because i'm a beekeeping neophyte. 

From everything I've read once they decide to swarm the best way to discourage them is to make a split.  Just destroying every queen cell that pops up is likely to end up with them swarming anyway and a queenless hive left behind.

[kansas]

I'm thinking that maybe i need to find my queen, kill her and requeen.  Or, is there any way to prevent the main swarm from leaving?  Would the workers fly off with the new queen eventually?  This is the only hive I have and splitting doesn't seem like a good idea as then i end up with two not so strong hives.  Or, could these build up in time for fall?

[kansas]

Apologies, in addition.........everything i have read says not to continue to cut out the swarm cells after egg laying has ceased and swarm cells are capped. :'(  I've been doing this.  Is there any way to stop the swarm?  Remove and kill the current queen, then wait a few days and requeen? anybody ever tried this?

[Kathyp]

you may have lost your queen and your hive is trying to requeen.  if you have no eggs and no small larvae, they may have been trying to requeen themselves and you have been killing their effort.

they may have already swarmed and you missed it.

first thing i'd do is find out if you have a queen.  if you have no good queen cells left, you'll have to requeen, but if you have any good cells left, they are already 1/2 way to a new queen and you may not be successful with a purchased queen.

do you have any larvae in the hive?  they will be easier to see than eggs.

[doak]

What you may be seeing is queen cups. they will be present all the time. They are all the same size and are about 1/4th as long as a completed cell. They will continue to build those if you keep cutting them out.
If the go as far to almost or to cap one, with a developing larvae, then you have a swarming potintal.
If you don't have any eggs, and there is a capped queen cell. If you take the queen out, regardless what you do with her, they may still swarm with the virgin queen.
If there is a capped queen cell, Move the colony about ten feet, set another box where the old one was. Take about half of what is in the hive with the capped queen cell and put this in the new box that is in the old location. Leave the queen in the old box at the new location.
It shouldn't be too late to do this.
doak

[rdy-b]

they may be just trying to make a new queen.where on the frames are they puting the cells? If you find you still have a queen one of the sighns i see before swarming is back filling the brood chamber with honey. that with the presence of cells on the botom of the frame is a sure sighn they will hit the trees. 8-) RDY-B

[kansas]

Thanks for all the help guys.  I have found my queen and marked her but, I'm afraid there may be a swarm coming.  They are backfilling the brood chambers w/ honey.  I could split the hives but as of now there aren't any queen cells coming, I had cut them all out thinking that would stop things.  So, I have a hive getting ready to swarm and no queen cells or uncapped brood around to save me.  I've started feeding them syrup from a local man's suggestion to discourage swarming. 

Any tips at this point or is it wait and see?   :?

[Kathyp]

if they swarm, you lose 1/2 or so of your hive.  if you split, you get two hives...maybe smaller but not losing 1/2 your bees.  i'd split, i think and either buy a queen or see if they'll raise one.

i don't think feeding will keep them from swarming if they are set on it.  could be wrong......

[Mici]

now now kathy...you don't loose 1/2 of your bees, sometimes you do but...usually you don't.
i would let them swarm and then i would use that swarm to draw me some new comb, and after a while (if i was into honey-making) i'd recombine them.

feeding, stopd the swarm mode...hummm, maybe, they say extreme pasture stops a hive from swarming so..to simulate it...give them more room-an empty medium, and a top feeder to simulate the strong flow, but i doubt it would work.

[Kathyp]

i said 1/2 or so.... :-) 

he'd have to catch the swarm....

[kansas]

how would splitting-i.e. putting 1/2 the bees(?) and the old queen into an empty box (?)- stop the swarm?  entomologically speaking, does this make them feel as if they have already swarmed? 
Then, if this does work, I am left with another 1/2 of the bees and no queen-O.K. I can order a queen but rumor has it that a hive won't accept her if there is uncapped brood?   :-\ 

[Mici]

well..catching the swarm isn't all that difficult in MOST situations.

the best way for you to do it, if they are at the very edge of swarming,would be to: find the queen, cage her, then...you artificialy swarm them, meaning, you put a board at 30 degree angle or so onto the hive, then you put the caged queen onto that board and brush bees off of every frame onto that board, this way, the "swarmy" bees and the queen will stay out-as if they swarmed.and the non-"swarmy" bees will crawl right off that board back inside the hive.

but i know you probably don't have the best picture of what i'm saying.


i'm not really sure how you make a split out off a swarmy hive, but...you can make more than just 2.
to tell as plain as possible, you take 5 frames-the ones without queen cells and put them in  new hive, you also take the old queen and put her inside. in the old hive you have 5 frames left and some queen cells, those queen s will emerge, and you'll have 2 queens-2 hives.

wait for other more exact advices, this is just...first aid.

[Brian D. Bray]

I would do a temporary split.  Split the hive until the queen begins to lay again then recombine them.  The swarm frenzy will be over and by putting the 2 halves back together you have restrenghtened the hive for foraging.  Put the split with the queen in the new box to simulate swarming.

Never remove the queen cells--it's the best way I know of to become queenless.  The queen will stop laying a week or so before the new queen is slated to hatch, she then often swarms before the new queen(s) emerge.  If you cut out the queen cells you are now queenless in that hive.  Unless you have another hive or catch the swarm you run the risk of lossing the entire hive when it turns laying worker.

Some hives build the starts of queen cells and leave them, others build the startes of queen cells, tear them out and do it again.  If you cut out cells the bees will build more.  Leave the queen cells alone and learn to manage the hive so you can turn the existance of queen cells to your advantage.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm