Confusion Sets In - What Frames to Buy to move to Foundationless?

[mgmoore7]

I have two hives with pierco plastic foundation (deep brood and medium super) and want to migrate to foundationless and probably all mediums eventually as well.

What frames (manufacturer and model) have you found easiest to use for foundationless.  I need to order 40-60 to be prepared for the fall flow here in FL and have some extras. 

[Scadsobees]

Any wooden frames would work fine.  Dadant, mann lake, etc. Probably whoever is closest to you.

I cut V-shaped wooden inserts.  I've not tried it, but it sounds like some people cut the top bar of a wedge frame on an angle and just flip that angled wedge out.  Or use starter strips. 

Rick

[tillie]

I like the grooved wooden frames - not the wedge kind.  The groove makes it easy to put the starter strip in with the wax tube fastener or with a bead of wax, however you want to get it on the starter strip.  The groove allows the wax to settle around the edge of the starter strip and hold it in firmly.

You can order boxes of 50 frames from Dadant and from Kelley, and I'm sure from others as well.  I found the Kelley frames to be a little odd, but probably because I'm used to my Dadant frames.  The Kelley frame has an end bar that has a slanted side which affects how you put the frame in the box.  I'm too much of a newbee to understand how that is a useful feature, but I'm sure it is.

Linda T in Atlanta (sad not to be in the mountains any longer)

[mgmoore7]

Tillie

Is this the frame you are speaking of?
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_42&products_id=143

What are you using for the starter strip?   Are you using small cell. 

Also you said the "wax to settle".  Are you refering to the wax that the bees create or wax that you are use to setup the frames?

[BeeJay]

I also have a question, I'm using "Permadent Foundation - Deep" so is this small cell? or should I get diferent ones?

[tillie]

mgmoore7,

Yes, that's the idea.  I am using small cell for starter strips.  Robo has posted that it doesn't make any difference what size the starter strip cells are because they are just a starting point and the bees will then build the size cells they need, but I'm trying to influence them to think smaller so I continue to purchase small cell wax foundation - I then cut one sheet of foundation into 1/2 to 3/4 " strips. 

Occasionally I'll fill a frame with a full sheet of SC foundation to keep the bees on the path - usually one frame in the center of the box somewhere.

When I said that the starter strip is waxed into the groove, the wax I was referring to is the melted wax that I am using to hold the strip into the groove.  I use a wax tube fastener that I bought from Dadant.  It doesn't come with directions, but I have some direction on my blog about how to use it....http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-use-wax-tube-fastener_26.html

There are several posts on my blog about how to wax the starter strips into the frames - Here are a couple:

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/search?q=wax+tube+fastener
http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/03/small-cell-foundation-starter-strips.html

In one of those I used a miniature bread pan to pour the wax in the groove - so be inventive!  I think that's part of learning to bee a beekeeper  ;) ;) ;)

Linda T in Atlanta

[BeeJay]

Thanks for the Clarification Linda :)

[mgmoore7]

Thanks Tillie

That helps.  I am going to place me order with Dadant soon.

[annette]

Linda,

Are you purchasing the small cell wax foundation from Dadant as well??? I have seen them, and I believe they are wired. Unless I am confusing them with another distributor. Does it matter if they are wired??? Probably not as you are cutting them anyway.

Sorry for asking so many questions about this, but I am excited and a bit nervous about changing over to small cell. I want to do it exactly like you did this, as it seems to be working for you.

I am going to take the plunge soon. Is this a good time of year to start??? I was going to start slowly, just a few frames at a time in the brood super. How would you suggest to start??

Thanks
Annette, in incredibly hot (108 degrees yesterday) Placerville. The bees are sucking up water like crazy to keep things cool. They are amazing to be able to survive ok in this heat.

[tillie]

This is what I ordered.  It isn't wired:

https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=79

Linda T in Atlanta

[Michael Bush]

I've done it will all kinds.  My favorite is to CUSTOM order them from Walter T. Kelly (and you might have to wait a while and you might have to order a lot) with no grooves in the top or bottom bars.  The bottom bars are already available in solid, but the tops are custom.  Then I cut the bevel on the top.  If you go to www.beesource.com go to the exchange and search for "custom frames" or PM Dave W, you'll find that Dave W will custom make them for you.  Tell him what depth and you want the "Bush" style and you'll get what I bought, which is 1 1/4" wide frames with the bevel already on them.  He'll even assemble them if you like.

[Understudy]

I use permacomb. It fits only mediums. There is now HSC for deeps. But deeps are to heavy for my tastes. If you want to go foundationless. I would use the starter strips like tillie does. She has a great video on her site on how she fastens them into place.

You can order medium frames with a top and bottom groove. Than order some wax foundation and cut it into strips with a pizza cutter. Cut them into 1" strips and secure them into the top bar groove with melted beeswax or parafin. When that cools down it will hold them in place. If you use parafin spray it down afterward with a sugar syrup mix just to mask the smell of the parafin.

Tillie's wax tube fastner video:
http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-use-wax-tube-fastener_26.html

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[annette]

I already have all the frames with the grooves in them, like Linda's,so I will just use what I have.Thank you Michael for that info on the frames, good to know perhaps someday in future. Will order the wax tube fastener (its cheap) and the wax foundation from Dadant, per Linda's web site. I have watched Linda's video many times and I am ready to go now.

The only question still unanswered is when is a good time to start??? Can I just start replacing frames here and there in my brood super??? Does it have to be only the brood super, can it be the honey super also???

Thanks for all the info. I am feeling more confident now.

Annette

[Robo]

I've taken the lazier, but just as effective approach.

I buy grooved top bars and cut 1" strips of coroplast (from free election/sale signs  :-D) and two brads to hold. Quick and easy.
 

Annette,

Be careful inserting them in honey supers as the bees will over draw the comb on either side.  Best result are when they are inserted into the brood area with full frames on either side.

[Moonshae]

I used wired foundation to make my starter strips, and just trimmed a quarter inch of wax off the wires for each strip past the first. With wedge frames, the wires were great for holding the strips in without any trouble.

I did notice the bees filling in the bottom groove with cells opening upward before working down from the strip, though. I guess they'll figure out what's best when they draw down that far. Beautiful comb so far, though, from the strips.

[Michael Bush]

>when is a good time to start???

Now is always good.  :)