Does a swarm need a queen?

Stingtarget · April 01, 2008, 08:50:19 PM

Caught my very first swarm today. I had one hive that I knew was ready and I was planning on moving them all this Saturday. I thought I could've made the move and then added another hive body at the new location. Trying to keep it lite to load in the truck.

Anyway, I was able to retrieve the swarm and place them in a new hive. Here's my question.....which hive needs the new queen or does either? Do I need to look for eggs after the swarm settles down and settles into their new home? Do I need to order a new queen for the hive the swarm left from?

Just curious....this is the first time I have experienced this. I would rather ask the question than wait until it's too late and then order the queen. One last obervation is that I have no one anywhere close to me that has bees. If there are swarm cells in the original hive, I'm not sure there would be enough drones of different stock to mate with her.

Michael Bush · April 01, 2008, 10:27:45 PM

When a hive swarms, the old queen leaves about the time the swarm cells are capped (usually just after, occasionally just before). So the old hive will have a queen in about eight days and she'll be laying about two weeks after that. The swarm will have a queen. If it's the first (primary) swarm she will be the old mated queen. If it's an afterswarm (second, third etc.) she will be a virgin.

Stingtarget · April 01, 2008, 11:02:57 PM

Is it safe to assume that the old queen in the swarm made it safely into my new hive? Here's how I got them - trying to act professional in the midst of the uncertainty of my first warm - as I had a crowd at the neighbor's house watching.

They were 14-16 feet up in a tree. I placed the new hive with drawn comb on top of a 6' step ladder. I ran my extension ladder next to the hive perched on the step ladder and leaned it onto the limb the swarm was draping from. I then sprayed them lightly with sugar syrup and used my hand to gently rake them into a 5 gallon bucket. I then came down the ladder and poured them on top of the frames in the hive. The first trip up the ladder I got maybe a pound of bees. These bees stayed on top of the frames fanning. I then went up the ladder the second time for some more and again poured them onto the frames. By this time the bees were all working their way down into the hive. The final trip I got all I could of the bees. I finished by placing an empty shallow super on top with the lid. When everything was complete there was maybe a large handfull of bees still on the limb.

Here's what could go wrong: In a previous post - Thursday - of last week I mentioned that I had just been given some hives and equipment by another beekeeper getting out of the hobby due to age. The comb in the hives I got from him hadn't had a bee on them since last summer. The stuff was super dry. I did try to mist a few frames with sugar syrup to freshen them up. The honey super I placed on top was also dry except for 3 frames I placed in the center that was still wet with fresh honey. I did this as darkness was setting in and I had no way to get feed on top of them. Only reason I thought to feed was so they could produce the wax needed to freshen up the old comb. I haven't fed them yet. Do I need to tomorrow? The shallow super on top will be their winter feed super. I always leave one shallow on my hives year round that is theirs. I simply move it up to add my medium surplus supers.

To make it easier I'll summarize my questions:

Can I be sure the old queen made it into the new hive?
Can I still move my hives this weekend? If I move them all there is a better chance the new queen will find a drone to mate with. Do I risk disturbing the two "swarm" affected hives? I'd really like to move them before they get any heavier.

dlmarti · April 01, 2008, 11:15:32 PM

The queen will be in the top middle of the swarm.

When you watch the experienced people collect a swarm, they try to get most of the swarm in one swift strong shake of the branch.

I would be concerned given your description, that you may have not gotten the queen.

If you see bees fanning at the front of the box, or if them start building comb then you probably got her.

I would probably put some feed on the hive to help them along, at least for the first week.

As to moving the hive, I wouldn't until the new queen is laying.

tillie · April 01, 2008, 11:29:30 PM

Michael,

Reading your post here, I have a question. I got a swarm today (talked about it in another post.) It wasn't a large swarm. Should I assume because of its size, that it probably was an after swarm and may have a virgin queen? I don't know what I would do regardless, except to watch and see if she begins laying. I'm pretty sure from the way the bees behaved that the queen was in the box and in the hive I put them in when I got home.

I'm feeding them and plan to leave them alone for about seven days before looking inside again. The buildup should be fast here since it's swarm season and the main flow is upon us. If it's a virgin queen, she'll have time to fly out to mate and start laying.

Or should I do something different?

Linda T in Atlanta

Michael Bush · April 02, 2008, 07:40:56 AM

>Can I be sure the old queen made it into the new hive?

Do you have other hives? If you do they will not stay in an empty box without a queen, they will drift to the other hives.

>Can I still move my hives this weekend? If I move them all there is a better chance the new queen will find a drone to mate with.

Move the one with the swarm? Your other hives? If the bees are likely to be in the middle of mating a queen, I'd rather put it off, but they will probably do ok if you move them.

> Do I risk disturbing the two "swarm" affected hives? I'd really like to move them before they get any heavier.

The problems are, if the queens haven't emerged will moving them damage the queen cells and if they have, have they already oriented to the current location. But odds are they will sort it all out if you really want to move them.

>It wasn't a large swarm. Should I assume because of its size, that it probably was an after swarm and may have a virgin queen?

I always assume it MIGHT be a virgin queen if I didn't actually see a marked queen.

> I don't know what I would do regardless, except to watch and see if she begins laying.

A laying queen that swarms will start laying as soon as there is any comb that is 1/4" deep. A virgin queen won't start laying for another two weeks, most likely.

> I'm pretty sure from the way the bees behaved that the queen was in the box and in the hive I put them in when I got home.

If not, they would have drifted to your other hives or just plain left.

Stingtarget · April 02, 2008, 08:27:19 AM

Yes, I have 4 other hives. Similiar to what Tillie experienced. The bees took to the new hive and were fanning on the bottom board and sorta marched down into the frames. From the way they acted, the queen is inside.

I am going to chance moving 4 of the hives and leaving the swarm in place for a few weeks. I have got to start adding surplus supers. Mild winter and warm weather, blooms everywhere. If I wait, I'll have an additional 50#'s to try to lift into my truck. Was planning on moving this weekend and supering up at the new site.

After thinking it over I will purchase a new queen and take some frames from my other "non swarmed" hives and make up a Nuc. This will insure that if either swarmed hive is queenless, I'll already have one ready. If both turn out okay I can move the nuc into another hive body. This should also open up the brood nest in my other 3 hives by placing new foundation in and giving them something to do.

Understudy · April 02, 2008, 10:05:39 AM

Just to throw a wrench into the works.

You can have queenless swarms. They are doomed but they do happen.

They are usually much smaller than a normal swarm(not to be confused with an AHB swarm which can also be small). And will very often build on the first branch or suitable home they find. They will build comb quickly but will have no brood. Once they die off the comb will be robbed.

Queenless swarms are rare from a healthy hive. But not everything is perfect in nature.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

JP · April 02, 2008, 10:39:54 AM

Quote from: Understudy on April 02, 2008, 10:05:39 AM
Just to throw a wrench into the works.

You can have queenless swarms. They are doomed but they do happen.

They are usually much smaller than a normal swarm(not to be confused with an AHB swarm which can also be small). And will very often build on the first branch or suitable home they find. They will build comb quickly but will have no brood. Once they die off the comb will be robbed.

Queenless swarms are rare from a healthy hive. But not everything is perfect in nature.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

I spoke with a guy the other day that has been doing removals. He told me, "yeah, I take them down the road and release them, after I've vacuumed them."

I said "with a queen, right?"

He said "Well when I vacuum them, and they're in a big cluster, isn't the queen in there?"

I said "not always, there is no guarentee of that."

I e-mailed him and told him that a queenless swarm will die, may be nasty to passerbys, and that I collect swarms, and that if I was called out to collect queenless swarms, this would be a waste of my time. I also included a link and a picture of a queen catcher.

I had seen him the day before at a crawfish boil and my wife said I was a little rude to him. I didn't see it that way. I was to the point, and stated the facts.

Anyone out there want to catch queenless swarms??? I think not!!!

...JP

Understudy · April 02, 2008, 10:47:19 AM

A queenless swarm is usually so overwhelmed they tend not to be to aggressive. They don't have enough resources to squander them. Once they have built some comb they can be a bit more hostile but usually these groups number in the hundreds not the thousands.

Now if you take a regular hive and disrupt them with a vac and release them and have no idea on the queen. Then you have an issue. the problem is if the bees are moved more than two miles out they can't go home. They don't have a queen so they are usually also overwhelmed. They are also doomed. However once they get past the shock if they do manage to regroup in some way then they will be an issue. Depending if they are released in a populated area. If in the middle of nowhere, then they are simply doomed.

I don't recommend doing that with the bees because it basically removes any chance of survival they had. A cut out is brutal enough. Then having no home afterward is almost a certain demise.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Brian D. Bray · April 03, 2008, 01:02:51 AM

QuoteWhen everything was complete there was maybe a large handfull of bees still on the limb.

This is common with drop caught hives, the bees that go airborne return to the cluster site. That is why many beekeepers prefer to remove the branch the swarm is on and placing the limb onto the hive. When the cluster is shook loose (dropped) many bees from the outer edge of fly--usually the queen being toward the top and amid the cluster drops into the hive. If the bees begin to march into the hive and/or the bees begin scenting then I would assume you have the queen.