Queen cell frame question for possibly queenless hive

tillie · April 11, 2008, 07:38:13 PM

Of the two swarms I have hived at my house, one of them appears possibly queenless. I realize this may be a swarm with a virgin queen (it was a small swarm - possibly an after swarm) and I've only had the swarm since Tuesday (4 days ago). Today for insurance I went into my strongest hive looking for young brood and eggs, thinking I would put a frame of young brood and eggs into the possibly queenless hive as per Michael Bush's frequent advice.

As I searched in my bustling strongest hive, I got into the 3rd box from the top, second from the bottom. There was brood in all stages, including eggs on this one frame and in the center of the frame in a hole in the wax (these started as foundationless and they had left a hole the size of a quarter) were three queen cells. Two were opened at the bottom and the third was a beautiful unopened queen cell. So I took that frame and put it in the possibly queenless hive.

Now I'm panicked that I shouldn't have taken that queen cell from the burgeoning hive. I've given the strong hive all the room in the world to spread out and they are taking it. There are five medium boxes on the hive with brood in four of them and comb being drawn in the fifth. However, there's a lot of hanging out on the porch and I've been afraid they will swarm. What if they do and I've taken the queen cell they were counting on?

I get myself into so many "woe is bee" situations.

Linda T in another mess in Atlanta but with seven (count them: seven) hives

Kathyp · April 11, 2008, 07:56:31 PM

wow. didn't you get down to 0 last year? that's pretty impressive.

here is the way i would look at it....even if you didn't make the very best choice, you left the big hive with plenty of resources to requeen if they have to. if the hive you gave the frame to has a queen, the worst that would happen is that you wasted a queen cell.

seems to me that you'll be ok either way.

KONASDAD · April 11, 2008, 08:40:10 PM

you are fine. The small hive will raise the cell as their own. According to Finsky(remember him?) you get 100% acceptance. THis might not diminish the desire for the strong hive to swarm. I just dont know. MB says often, "by the time queen cells appear, they have made up their minds." I sort of expect to see the same thing tomorrow when I inspect my weak cutout hive and my two strong hives. I will take any queen cells and place them in the weak hive if they are still queenless.

tillie · April 11, 2008, 08:46:49 PM

I have watched this strong hive, moved brood and honey frames so that the unlimited concept might be more evident to these girls, but there's an awful lot of hanging out on the porch...and it isn't Hotlanta yet.

I've never cut a queen cell in my beekeeping life, but stealing one from a hive that may be planning a swarm may be too akin to cutting one and leaving the remainders of the swarmed hive (assuming they do) queenless. As Kathyp pointed out the strong hive has lots of resources....I saw eggs and tiny C larvae in every box I looked in today on that hive.

Linda T in Atlanta

Michael Bush · April 11, 2008, 08:58:13 PM

>Two were opened at the bottom and the third was a beautiful unopened queen cell. So I took that frame and put it in the possibly queenless hive.

By open you mean not capped yet? Or emerged?

>Now I'm panicked that I shouldn't have taken that queen cell from the burgeoning hive. I've given the strong hive all the room in the world to spread out and they are taking it.

There were still frames with eggs weren't there? They will start more if they need them.

> There are five medium boxes on the hive with brood in four of them and comb being drawn in the fifth. However, there's a lot of hanging out on the porch and I've been afraid they will swarm. What if they do and I've taken the queen cell they were counting on?

If they have eggs and young larvae they will probably raise another.

tillie · April 11, 2008, 10:00:43 PM

By "open" I mean there was an opening about 1/4" circle in the bottom of the peanut - I assume that's how they look when the queen emerges - but I also don't know how the queen cell looks when the queen inside has been killed.

Linda T in Atlanta

tillie · April 12, 2008, 08:39:25 AM

Going forward - was what I did a bad idea?

Would it have been better to find a simple frame of eggs and brood rather than take a frame with a queen cell?

My thought at the time was that it would give the hive, if queenless, a jump on time in that they wouldn't have to take all that time from egg to peanut cell to queen - that some days will have been cut off of the process (or as mature as the cell looked) maybe even more than a week.

Linda T puzzling over stuff in Atlanta

annette · April 12, 2008, 01:16:29 PM

Tillie

I believe the queen cell looks sort of jagged when they have killed her in the cell. I had a queen cell that was torn open on the side and I believe MB told me that is what happens when they kill her in the cell.

Wish I could help with your other questions, but I am perplexed as you on this one. But I always thought they do not swarm unless they have left behind another possibility of a queen. Meaning, perhaps they will make another queen cell and cap it before they decide to swarm. In any case, you said there were lots of eggs in this hive and they can make another queen. You might have slowed them down a bit, but it is early in the season and I would not worry to much.

In thinking it over again, It may have been better to wait and see if they had a virgin queen. Giving them that ripe queen cell with a virgin in the hive, well they would have killed that queen in the cell. And that is a waste. Better I think to have given them the frame with eggs and then they can make the queen if they need her.

But, you know I may have done the same thing as you, as once we are up at the hives with them open, the decisions we make are sometimes not thought out as well. I know I have done things, then after thought about them and realized I did not do the correct thing. Thank goodness the bees are so adaptable and fix our mistakes.

Lets hear from more beeks on this.

From
Annette always learning and learning here in sunny, and already hot Placerville. Uug!! We are going into a drought summer so even wondering if the bees will make much honey.

Cindi · April 13, 2008, 11:35:06 AM

Linda, my comments on queen cell observation. When a queen cell is not finished capping the bottom of the cell is open. If a queen has been killed in her cell by another queen, there is a tear in the side of the cell. If a queen has emerged, now this is the interesting one. It looks like an upside down can of food that has had the lid almost completely cut off. Make sense? Picture when you open a can of food and you leave the top still attached a little on one side, a flap if you will. Basically, this is what an emerged queen cell looks like.

When the queen is emerging, she turns around and around, cutting her way out of the cell and then pop!!! She pushes the lid up and out she comes. Well to her it is up, she is facing downwards, to us that would be she pushes the lid downwards, that is how we see the cell. Interesting stuff. Have a wonderful and great day, Cindi

tillie · April 13, 2008, 01:53:41 PM

I just think I made another one of my big mistakes - we'll see how the hive does - either the queen emerges and they need her or they kill her so that the no-longer-virgin queen can function - I guess they could both die - bad news.

The big hive seems fine but it may still swarm, leaving itself queenless if this is an essential queen cell - there could be others in the hive - I didn't go all the way down to the bottom box - only the top two.

I think the next time I won't try to push the train out of the station and just provide the hive with brood and eggs if I am in doubt about queenlessness.

Linda T in Atlanta

Michael Bush · April 13, 2008, 03:26:29 PM

>By "open" I mean there was an opening about 1/4" circle in the bottom of the peanut - I assume that's how they look when the queen emerges - but I also don't know how the queen cell looks when the queen inside has been killed.

When the queen is killed the side is always torn out. If the tip of the cell was brown and papery, not white and waxy, then it was an emerged queen.

>Going forward - was what I did a bad idea?

If a queen already emerged, odds are the old have has a queen and the new one has queen cells. Sounds like a good plan. If I wasn't sure, I'd make sure there are eggs in both hives and then don't worry.

>Would it have been better to find a simple frame of eggs and brood rather than take a frame with a queen cell?

If the cell hadn't emerged, that's probably what I'd do. Or cut out one cell (if you can without damaging it)

>My thought at the time was that it would give the hive, if queenless, a jump on time in that they wouldn't have to take all that time from egg to peanut cell to queen - that some days will have been cut off of the process (or as mature as the cell looked) maybe even more than a week.

It's a good theory. It will make a difference of 10 days or less. It takes 10 days for them to make a new queen. Two weeks more for her to start laying. So you cut between four and ten days off of 24 days.