Rough Start: What Are My Options Now?

PeskySquirrel · May 12, 2008, 01:29:08 PM

I installed my first ever package of bees on April 23rd. The queen in my package was DOA, so I got a replacement queen and installed her (in her cage) on April 24th. On April 26th I manually released the queen. I inspected my hive this Saturday (which according to my count is 14 days after the queen was released) and I found no evidence of the queen (I didn't see her) or of any brood/eggs. Assuming the worse, the queen is dead or gone, what are my options at this point? Do I have time to install a new queen? Even if she starts laying right away, will all my bees be dead by the time the larvae reach maturity (and thus there will be no one to care for them)? At this point I'm playing wait and see because I think I've passed the point of no return, but maybe they can still be saved? What are my options at this point?

The weather here in Wisconsin has been pretty crummy. Some cold nights and not many days above 60. While I'm hopeful things in the hive will turn around, I think the cold weather, my inexperience, and some bad luck have contributed to my rough start. I'll keep feeding them as long as there are bees to take the syrup, but things look grim.

Advice and suggestions appreciated.

bassman1977 · May 12, 2008, 02:17:02 PM

Are you positive that she's not there? Maybe she's not laying because of the cold weather. Is she marked? Do you have another hive to take eggs from and put into the hive in question?

PeskySquirrel · May 12, 2008, 02:26:30 PM

I am not positive. That's some of why I'm taking a wait and see approach: I can't confirm for sure that the queen is not there. I looked over the frames very carefully (there are about four or so that are almost fully built-out with comb), but like I said, I didn't see her. Sadly she is not marked for easy spotting.

Kathyp · May 12, 2008, 02:40:18 PM

was it a mated queen?

PeskySquirrel · May 12, 2008, 02:46:44 PM

Yes. She should have been mated.

tillie · May 12, 2008, 02:54:09 PM

If you have a local beekeeping organization, you could put out a help call/email to see if another beekeeper in the group would be willing to give you a frame of brood and eggs. If you can add a frame to the hive, you give the bees a chance to make their own queen.

It's also possible that your queen was killed because of a virgin queen being in the hive. Even if she flew off to be mated, it will be a while before you would see eggs and brood.

Linda T in Atlanta

Daddys Girl · May 12, 2008, 03:20:51 PM

New beek speaking here. Please remember that I don't know a lot, and what I do know I have gleaned from talking a people with a LOT more experience than I have. I won't tell you that your queen is hidden in there somewhere, nor will I tell you that she isn't. I will tell you that there are some things you can do to help the situation out--and if they are staying put and not running out of the hive, you're already better off than I was a week ago! :)

Mathematically speaking, you do have a potential problem. Bee life cycle is 45 days, and you're two weeks after installation with none of the signs of her presence in evidence. But also remember that even if she started laying the moment you released her, you would have a dramatic decline in hive population until the new bees, genetically related to the package queen, hatched. Don't worry too much about that decline, because bees have been at this a long time, and some very successful feral colonies start from square one with a very small number of bees.

Anxiety is completely understandable, but trust the bees. If there is a queen hidden in that hive somewhere, she should start laying soon, and the bees will be fine.

Quote from: tillie on May 12, 2008, 02:54:09 PMIt's also possible that your queen was killed because of a virgin queen being in the hive. Even if she flew off to be mated, it will be a while before you would see eggs and brood.

I agree with Tillie: if you can get a frame of brood to tide you over until your queen starts laying, do so. It will give the bees something to organize themselves around until you can sort the queen issue out. The peace of mind is priceless.

During the height of my absconding Buckfast crisis, it was also suggested that on occasion that an unmarked queen, mated or not, was shook in with the package bees and killed the marked queen when she emerged from the cage. There is NO end of frustration when you realize that the distinctly marked queen who came with your package bees is not in evidenceTrust me when I say that I completely share in your frustration, but the happy thing is that if you got a virgin queen, and you can get the bees to stay in the hive and draw comb, that the place will be ready to go when the queen finally decides to start laying or you secure another queen.

IF you decide to get another queen sent to you, remember that if there is a queen in the hive that the bees will most likely kill her. Hang the cage and then check to see if the bees are biting/stinging/attacking at her through the screen a day or two later. Queen attendants are a nurturing force, so if you see the workers trying to kill one, there's a good bet that they are working for someone else. (Again, if you have a local beek helping you, this might be time to start a nuc with the spare queen.)

Chin up. I've been where you are in the last two weeks and I finally found eggs on my hive check, a bit more than two weeks from installation(and entirely too much drama).

derrick1p1 · May 12, 2008, 04:41:37 PM

I'm learning that this year(2nd year), I worried a lot (too much) during my first year. This year I've discovered 3 out of 4 of my hives are queenless as of last week. One hive had a newly emerged queen with several other queen cells in it. I gave the other 2 hives some queen cells and will inspect all three to see where I am. Funny thing is, I'm not stressed nearly as much this year (and I'm having more troubles this year), but I'm learning so much more. And I now know to continue to look for the inclination to swarm throughout the Spring.

Just remember, regardless of the direction/action you take, to learn and have fun.

Best,
Derrick

bassman1977 · May 12, 2008, 04:56:04 PM

I have this Carnolian hive that I bought last year. I've talked about this hive before and had averted tragedy with it early in March. This hive is my baby even though it has been a royal pain in my butt since I got it. Anyway, from the first inspection of the year until the end of last month, the queen really hadn't been cranking out the eggs like I had expected. I had put a few top bars in the brood nest so that I could catch some eggs and new bees for a TBH I built. Right when I was hoping to populate my TBH, I found that the bees did draw out the comb and the queen filled up about 30 of the cells with eggs. I was pleased BUT there weren't any eggs anywhere else but on the top bars. Well, a week or so went by and I had a spare queen for another hive that I thought was queenless, but after I triple checked it, found it was ok, I figured I would use the spare to requeen my Carnolian. I opened the hive and I found that my queen had layed wall to wall and that I had frames upon frames of capped brood! I couldn't believe it. I think ol' queeny sensed her number was about to be up and started shooting out eggs like no tomorrow.

I guess trusting in your bees, even though it is often difficult to do, is a good philosophy to live by in beekeeping.

derrick1p1 · May 12, 2008, 05:02:09 PM

Quote from: bassman1977 on May 12, 2008, 04:56:04 PM

I guess trusting in your bees, even though it is often difficult to do, is a good philosophy to live by in beekeeping.

Very well said. I often worry when I should trust they have it under control.

randydrivesabus · May 12, 2008, 05:05:11 PM

i think you're best off getting a mated queen from someone. your bee club might be a good place to start asking. if you do the math and you start with a frame of eggs/open brood, by the time you get a laying mated queen you could have an introduced mated queen with ready to emerge offspring.

bassman1977 · May 12, 2008, 05:10:59 PM

Quotei think you're best off getting a mated queen from someone.

I agree that is optimal. Queens are expensive though so work within your budget. I'm cheap so I typically raise my own if it's still early in the year. :-D

derrick1p1 · May 12, 2008, 05:18:12 PM

The other advantage of bringing in eggs/brood to rear a queen, is that you will get some of the genetic material from that hive. I have a strong (and not very gentle), but good hive with genetics that I hope to do this with at some point.

Derrick

PeskySquirrel · May 12, 2008, 06:59:58 PM

Thanks everyone for your insights. I'll inquire locally about getting a mated queen to introduce. In the interim, I'll hope those crazy bees know what they're doing. As my wife quips, maybe I should just let them bee. :)

Michael Bush · May 13, 2008, 11:22:04 PM

Anytime you're not sure if there's a queen, it's hard to beat a frame of eggs. It's a win win.