laying workers, help

[jl]

i hived a new 3lb package with italian queen two weeks ago.  checked on them a week later.  They had drawn a little comb, but no eggs.  THe queen was out of the cage, but I didn't find her.  Went back in today and there is more comb, had trouble finding queen and eggs.  Never did find the queen.  But then I noticed two and sometimes three eggs in each of the few cells that have eggs.  I also observed that the eggs are spread out around the two frames that have eggs.  NO pattern.  I believe I have laying workers from what I've read. 
The question is, Can I perform the moving the hive, shaking the bees off all the frames, returning the empty hive to original location and then introducing a new queen or am I in trouble because it's a new package and the above is not going to work because of so few bees? 

Note:  I do have a second hive that I could rob brood and eggs from if needed.

Thanks for the help

Jeff 

[Kathyp]

sometimes a young queen will lay like that.  be patient.  if she's in there, you should see an improvement in a few weeks.

[doak]

Make sure the eggs are on the cell walls before thinking it is laying workers.
If they are on the bottom of the cell then it is most likely like Kathyp said.
If the eggs are about half way up the cell wall then it is probably workers.
doak

[jl]

The eggs I observed were on the bottom, but not always in the center.

[Kathyp]

patience.  :-)

the hardest thing for me when i started was to keep myself from "fixing" things. 

[jl]

CHecked hive again today.  THey've been in there for 17 days and there are plenty of eggs in the bottom of the cells (up to five), but there is no capped brood as of yet or larva.  I still could not find the queen.  Not sure where to go from here.

Jeff 

[Kathyp]

5 eggs in each cell?

can you get some pictures so that we can see what you are looking at?  that might help some.

[jl]

most cells have three or four, but I did find some with 5.  I tried to take a picture, but I'm no artist and they didn't come out.  I am 99% sure ther is no queen.  It's not like my other hive, that one I have trouble finding the queen sometimes (I find her 80% of the time) because of all the bees.  THe hive that I think is in trouble was a three pound package and there aren't a ton of bees and the only comb is what they have drawn.  I added one frame of empty drawn comb and one frame of brood, larva and eggs from my other hive.  I read it on Micahel Bush's website.  I figure while I'm trying to figure out what is happening in there it won't hurt for them to have extra brood and eggs.

[Brian D. Bray]

Rob a frame of mixed brood from the other hive you mentioned--you'll have an answer one way of the other then.

[jl]

Brian,

I added a frame of empty drawn comb and a frame of eggs, larva of different ages and capped brood from my other hive yesterday.  It's killing me to look inside today and see what's happening if anything.  Good thing it's cold and raining. 

I added the empty comb in hopes that if there is a queen in there she now has plenty of drawn comb that is empty except for a little pollen and honey.  I hope if she's there it will get her to lay a single egg in each cell.  THe funny thing is there are three and four eggs in each cell now, but they are in the bottom of the cells.  But the cells aren't that deep because they had started with new foundation. 

  If it works and there is a queen, I might add another frame of empty drawn comb to help them out.  Thoughts?

Thanks Jeff

[doak]

Laying workers "cannot" lay eggs in the bottom of the "worker" cell. Give the frame of brood like was said and give the new queen time to level out.
Most time it takes a little longer than two weeks for laying workers to appear.

The laying worker cannot reach the bottom of the cell.
If eggs are on the bottom you have a queen.


Deep cells vs. shallow cells.
You will not find "brood" cells as deep as honey cells.
Never have seen that mentioned here before. Of course I haven't read every thing that has been mentioned here either.
Don't for get to mention that. :roll: :) ;)
If you put drawn "Honey" cells in, the bees have to chop the top down a smidgen.
I'm Still learning after 9 years.
doak

[jl]

Doak,

I probably didn't explain it the right way.  I'll try again.  Where I've been seeing the multiple eggs, the bees are still building the cells so they are not the finished size.  They're not as deep as the comb in my other hive.  So I "assumed" that a worker could lay in the bottom.  I hope that explains it. 

This is only my second season with bees and the hive in question is my second hive.  So basically I still don't know what to expect and it's not going like last year.  The book I read basically said if you have more than one egg in a cell, you HAVE to HAVE laying workers, it said nothing of the queen laying in more than one cell, I never heard about the queen laying more than one egg until someone told me about it here and then I read about it on Michael Bush's website.  So I was initially frustrated and concerned, but I'm sure I'm worrying for nothing.  If I could just spot the queen I would feel better.  By the way, the empty comb I added was brood comb last year with some honey just in the upper corners.

Thanks for advice

Jeff

[Kathyp]

your mind is not going to be at ease until you are sure about your queen.  i think you are going to have to go out there and go through each frame until you are satisfied.  pull out your 1 and 10 frames so that you have lots of room.  take your time.  go over each and every frame until you find her.  if you can do it without smoking them, it might me easier.  they seem to hid from me when i smoke them. 

do not count on the frame that you added giving you answers.  if you really do have a laying worker, they may take some time to decide they need to make a queen.  if you do find the start of queen cells on that frame, at least you know they are trying.

also, do you have any capped  cells?  what do they look like?

[Michael Bush]

Five eggs in a cell, sounds like a laying worker.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm