update on laying worker hive

jl · June 09, 2008, 10:20:59 PM

Four weeks ago, I posted about a new packaged hive that the queen had disappeared and I had laying workers. (multiple eggs in each cell) I went with one of Michael Bush's suggestion and started giving them a frame of eggs from my other hive (hive #2). This week would be the fourth frame of eggs. As of last wednesday the laying working hive had started building queen cells, but none were capped and it didn't look like there was an egg in any of the cells. I checked the laying worker hive again today and the queen cells were still not capped and I could not see any larva in them. (I did see some dead larva in the laying worker hive, about ten or fifteen in normal cells.)

I also checked my other hive (we'll call it hive #2) today and found numerous swarm cells. (Not having a good year apparently) In the top brood box of hive #2, I found at least ten capped queen cells right on the bottom of the frames and other swarm cells that were not capped.

I started to "think" (probably a mistake) that if I took one of the frames with the swarm cells and added it to the laying worker hive, the laying worker hive would eventually have a queen when the first queen in the swarm cells came out. So I added a frame containing approximately 5 capped swarm cells to my laying worker hive. Did I make a mistake or what?

thanks
Jeff

Brian D. Bray · June 09, 2008, 10:33:22 PM

Quote from: jl on June 09, 2008, 10:20:59 PM
Four weeks ago, I posted about a new packaged hive that the queen had disappeared and I had laying workers. (multiple eggs in each cell) I went with one of Michael Bush's suggestion and started giving them a frame of eggs from my other hive (hive #2). This week would be the fourth frame of eggs. As of last wednesday the laying working hive had started building queen cells, but none were capped and it didn't look like there was an egg in any of the cells. I checked the laying worker hive again today and the queen cells were still not capped and I could not see any larva in them. (I did see some dead larva in the laying worker hive, about ten or fifteen in normal cells.)

The workers haven't gotten the complete message yet, they're building queen cups wanting the laying workers to lay and egg in them and it ain't going to happen because the egg will be infertile and bees will eat (remove) drone eggs placed in queen cups.

QuoteI also checked my other hive (we'll call it hive #2) today and found numerous swarm cells. (Not having a good year apparently) In the top brood box of hive #2, I found at least ten capped queen cells right on the bottom of the frames and other swarm cells that were not capped.

Here's your solution.

QuoteI started to "think" (probably a mistake) that if I took one of the frames with the swarm cells and added it to the laying worker hive, the laying worker hive would eventually have a queen when the first queen in the swarm cells came out. So I added a frame containing approximately 5 capped swarm cells to my laying worker hive. Did I make a mistake or what?

thanks
Jeff

Smart move. Now go back and split your other hive or you'll loose the swarm that's still coming.

jl · June 09, 2008, 10:45:47 PM

to do the split, can i just take one of the brood boxes with all the bees in that box and just put it on it's own bottom board and then add a second empty brood box to each of the two original brood boxes? or is it more involved than that?

I'm strictly a weekend warrior when it comes to beekeeping, I was going to be happy with just two hives, but I also want to get some honey. If I let the swarm happen, I know I won't get as much honey as I would have, but i should still get some surplus, correct?

My problem is I would have to order new frames, foundation and boxes for the split and so they would have to draw the new comb out anyway, so the chances of getting surplus honey is questionable, right? I hate not knowing what to do.

Jeff

Brian D. Bray · June 09, 2008, 10:53:19 PM

Quote from: jl on June 09, 2008, 10:45:47 PM
to do the split, can i just take one of the brood boxes with all the bees in that box and just put it on it's own bottom board and then add a second empty brood box to each of the two original brood boxes? or is it more involved than that?

I'm strictly a weekend warrior when it comes to beekeeping, I was going to be happy with just two hives, but I also want to get some honey. If I let the swarm happen, I know I won't get as much honey as I would have, but i should still get some surplus, correct?

My problem is I would have to order new frames, foundation and boxes for the split and so they would have to draw the new comb out anyway, so the chances of getting surplus honey is questionable, right? I hate not knowing what to do.

Jeff

Find your queen and move her and some brood frames, with accompanying bees into a nuc or single box hive. Moving the queen mimic's the swarm, so when the remaining queen cells hatch the 1st queen will kill the other queens still in the cells and the swarm tendency will cease. If you move the queen cells and leave the queen the bees will build more queen cells and still swarm later. Moving the queen is what ends the swarm frenzy, otherwise you can experience swarms all summer. Sometimes you get lucky and it works but in my experience it is always best to move the queen to the split and let a new queen take over the parent hive.

If it weakens the hive too much you can always re-combine them later, but by splitting you've killed the swarm frenzy and not lost a good quantity of your hives resources.

Scadsobees · June 10, 2008, 09:42:40 AM

Otherwise, rather than do a complete split, take some of the resources of the hive that is pending swarming and give them to the LW hive (frames of bees). That way you will end up with 2 medium strength hives rather than a weak LW hive and a medium strength swarmed hive.

Brian's right though, you should get the old queen. I hate wasting queens, but she's the leader of the swarm pack, and if you can't split then you can at least end up with a new queen.

Rick

jl · June 10, 2008, 09:53:08 PM

what would happen if i took the old queen and a couple of frames and added them to the laying worker hive? would complete anarchy occur or would the laying worker hive accept the old queen from the swarm hive? probably a dumb question but i had to ask.

jeff

annette · June 10, 2008, 11:00:45 PM

They will probably kill your queen because they believe they already have a queen (the laying workers). I know this because I did the same thing this spring. I introduced a caged mated queen taken right out of a healthy hive, and the laying worker hive just killed her.

Good luck and I understand your feelings about wanting to stay small. I felt the same way when I started with one hive, but now I have 3 hives.

I had the same situation when I found my one and only hive last spring had made queen cells and so I did a split. I never did find the queen and just placed some queen cells into an empty super and shook in many, many nurse bees and some pollen and honey. They built up nice and strong and ended up with a wonderful queen.

But Brian was correct when he says that the parent hive will keep on swarming as that is what happened to my hive when I left the queen in there.

Good Luck once again
Annette

Brian D. Bray · June 11, 2008, 12:44:02 AM

Quote from: jl on June 10, 2008, 09:53:08 PM
what would happen if i took the old queen and a couple of frames and added them to the laying worker hive? would complete anarchy occur or would the laying worker hive accept the old queen from the swarm hive? probably a dumb question but i had to ask.

jeff

It will work if you do the following to the letter:
1. Put the old queen and a couple of frames in a 5 frame nuc.
1a. Place it next to the Laying worker (LW) hive.
2. Feed it for about a week.
3. Remove the top(s) from the LW hive.
4. Place perferated newpaper or a screen on top of the LW hive.
5. Remove the bottom board of the nuc.
6. Place the 5 frame nuc over the LW hive and lay boards on each side to cover the gap (weight or tack them down).
7. Prop the top of the nuc with 1/2 or 3/4 inch slat so the bees in the nuc have an upper entrance.
8. Come back in 2 days and remove the screen or remaining newspaper.
9. Check hive in 1 week to check for worker larvae.
9.a Check again at 2 weeks for capped worker brood.

Gridly · June 11, 2008, 09:57:22 AM

I have read that introducing a queen into a LW hive will just get the queen killed. The suggested solution was to take the hive about 150 feet away from its original location, and shake EVERY SINGLE bee off of the frames and out of the hive bodies onto the ground. Make sure you do not take back even one bee on the frames or in the hive - it might be a LW. The laying workers have never gone foraging, so they have not made an orientation flight. They will be lost, and not return to the hive. Take the hive back, put your split queen/workers/brood into it, and the older foraging non-laying workers from the original hive will return.

Never done this, but it made sense to me when I read it. Good luck!

Gridly

Ross · June 11, 2008, 10:33:57 AM

It sounds good, but in reality a significant number of the laying workers will in fact go back to the hive location. A strong queen right hive at that location might be ok, a nuc or split might not. The best advice is no hive at that location so the bees are dispersed.

Brian D. Bray · June 11, 2008, 08:17:47 PM

Quote from: Gridly on June 11, 2008, 09:57:22 AM
I have read that introducing a queen into a LW hive will just get the queen killed. The suggested solution was to take the hive about 150 feet away from its original location, and shake EVERY SINGLE bee off of the frames and out of the hive bodies onto the ground. Make sure you do not take back even one bee on the frames or in the hive - it might be a LW. The laying workers have never gone foraging, so they have not made an orientation flight. They will be lost, and not return to the hive. Take the hive back, put your split queen/workers/brood into it, and the older foraging non-laying workers from the original hive will return.

Never done this, but it made sense to me when I read it. Good luck!

Gridly

If, in the above case, you have an old queen you are replacing, then the effort to make a LW hive queen right might be worth the effort. I laid out how is must be done if such a situation is to work. Nothing is guaranteed. The loss of the queen is a distinct possibility but since an excess, expendable queen is being used I believe it's worth the try. It's better than killing the queen outright and has the possibility of making a bad situation better. Also there is nothing that will guarantee the LWs won't return to the hive after the shake out, after all there is more than one in any LW hive--that's why there's always multiple eggs in each cell. Each LW lays her own egg in each cell as a queen would.

jl · June 11, 2008, 10:37:42 PM

well, i've decided i'm going to attempt my first split tommorow afternoon. A friend caught his first swarm today and convinced me to do the split. I was hesistant becuase I don't want to get to big, strictly a hobbyist beekeeper.

Correct me if I'm wrong. All I have for woodenware at this point is a bottom board, deep hive body with drawn empty comb, and cover. This is how I understand I'm going to do the split.

1. find old queen
2. put her and five frames of brood and bees into the new hive body.
3. leave the capped swarm cells in the old hive body.
4. close everything up and wait and see.

Should I feed the newly split colony sugar syrup or the old colony for that matter?

thanks for the input

Jeff

rossman_2000 · June 12, 2008, 01:26:14 PM

Jeff,

I would feed both of your newly split colonies. They will both need to quickly build up their supplies. One of my hives is still taking in sugar syrup from the feeders.

What time are you planning on doing your split today? If it is after 5:00, I could stop by and give you a hand or at least some moral support. Let me know. Good luck.

-Jason

jl · June 12, 2008, 10:03:28 PM

attempted the split today. Couldn't find the queen if my life depended on it. All the swarm cells are still capped and it doesn't look like I've lost any bees, so I'm thinking I just couldn't find her and she's still there. so I closed it back up and I'll try again tommorow.

Brian D. Bray · June 13, 2008, 02:26:13 AM

Quote from: jl on June 11, 2008, 10:37:42 PM
well, i've decided i'm going to attempt my first split tommorow afternoon. A friend caught his first swarm today and convinced me to do the split. I was hesistant becuase I don't want to get to big, strictly a hobbyist beekeeper.

Correct me if I'm wrong. All I have for woodenware at this point is a bottom board, deep hive body with drawn empty comb, and cover. This is how I understand I'm going to do the split.

1. find old queen

Correct.

Quote2. put her and five frames of brood and bees into the new hive body.

Correct.

Quote3. leave the capped swarm cells in the old hive body.

Incorrect, the old hive must have eggs and larvae from which to create a new queen unless you're installing a queen.

Quote4. close everything up and wait and see.

Check it in 7-10 days for eggs and comb build in split with old queen and queen cells in split of "parent" hive.

QuoteShould I feed the newly split colony sugar syrup or the old colony for that matter?

thanks for the input

Jeff

If they'll take it yes, if a heavy flow is on they'll ignore the feed and build comb from forage. The syrup will let them build comb until a flow starts and so the brood and storage areas are enlarged which will enlarge the hive.

jl · June 13, 2008, 08:28:11 AM

Brian,

"Incorrect, the old hive must have eggs and larvae from which to create a new queen unless you're installing a queen."

So I take it I cut out ALL the swarm cells after I find and split the old queen. Then I can intro a queen to the parent hive or let them make their own.

It might be too late at this point as I couldn't find the old queen yesterday and I might have missed the swarm while I was at work.

Jeff

Gridly · June 13, 2008, 09:31:13 AM

3. leave the capped swarm cells in the old hive body.
Incorrect, the old hive must have eggs and larvae from which to create a new queen unless you're installing a queen.

Why is it incorrect? I am a newbee, so I am probably wrong, but capped swarm cells ARE queens, and they are much further along in their development than a new egg, so you'd end up with a queen sooner that way. It seems to me that so long as the old queen moves to the new hive (simulated swarm) and the potential for a new queen (capped queen cells and/or eggs) is left in the old hive, then the split should take.

Again, newbee here, just trying to learn.

Gridly.

Ross · June 13, 2008, 10:26:28 AM

You are correct Gridly. Capped swarm cells are as good as gold. They save you two weeks in the queen rearing cycle. You may still have a virgin swarm if more than one virgin survives. Usually the first one kills the others, but not always. If you have cells on more than one frame, you might want to establish a nuc with the extra cells. That way if the first virgin doesn't mate for whatever reason, you have a spare queen. If she does mate, you have an extra nuc, always nice to have.

jl · June 13, 2008, 09:40:18 PM

well checked again today to try to do a split and i think i'm too late. I think they already swarmed. I can't find a queen. So i'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I did setup a box with empty drawn comb about ten feet away in case there is another swarm when I'm not around in hope that the swarm may settle into this new hive. Don't think there's much hope of it, but better than nothing. One question though, When I checked for the old queen today, I noticed six capped queen cells and four other uncapped queen cells with royal jelly in the bottom (nut sure if there were larvae in the cells.) The bees are tearing down the un-capped cells, but they are leaving the capped ones alone. Any ideas on why?

Jeff

Brian D. Bray · June 13, 2008, 11:00:01 PM

Quote from: jl on June 13, 2008, 08:28:11 AM
Brian,

"Incorrect, the old hive must have eggs and larvae from which to create a new queen unless you're installing a queen."

So I take it I cut out ALL the swarm cells after I find and split the old queen. Then I can intro a queen to the parent hive or let them make their own.

It might be too late at this point as I couldn't find the old queen yesterday and I might have missed the swarm while I was at work.

Jeff

Sorry, I went back and re-read what was written and I mis-read the sentence about the queen cells. What I said is valid IF there are no queen cells. Again sorry for the myopic mistake.