baffled

[debay]

to date my hive has baffled everyone here in my area. I must have the luck of a possum on an interstate. its a bit lengthy, but her is my issue:

may 5th, 2008 my hive is set up by a friend of mine. I only set up one hive with a 3lb package with queen. I started in a single super with two jar feeders. She started strong and I had a few brood hatches. They were drawing comb slow despite the two jars of food and the quantity of pollen coming in.

Then I noticed there were no more babies and the cells were filling with pollen/nectar. I was finding queen cells and before I realized it there were no fresh eggs/larva. I had also been cutting the queen cells. They would not fill out all of the frames. They refused (and even now in September they still havent filled out those frames 100%) to fill out all the frames.

I got some advice from a bee inspector and let them re queen on their own. He told me how long to wait and I did. I waited a week longer than he suggested and bought a queen. When I went to set her up, I had brood.  :-x. So I sold her to a buddy and counted my blessings. The next week I had queen cells,  :?, AND fresh eggs/brood. I tried cutting them but they came back. When she was laying about 4-5 frames with brood I placed a second deep on to see if they would jump start on the comb production.

several weeks later they had not even started any comb in the second super and still hadnt filled out the bottom one 100%. Out of 10 frames I still had one or two with minimal comb or complete blank foundation. I decided to reverse my original thinking and took the second deep off and put the lid back on. I had seen a full sized queen cell in the bottom deep but it was empty...... :-\..empty because I caught it before it formed, or empty because it was hatched???? I dont know. I had a ton of bees in the second deep that wouldnt shake out so I smoked em out. I smoked em a LOT. Apparently that queen cell hatched and she was hiding in the second super.

When I smoked them I set them in swarm mode. :shock: (about two weeks ago from this date). Not knowing that they had a queen I collected them and redeposited them back in the hive. I saw world war three begin. They fought all day and into dusk. They re swarmed just before dark but I didnt have a box to put them in. I was going to wait till morning and get the swarm but it was gone. The hive still had most of its bees but they were pretty hot. I got buzzed just going near the hive so I gave them space.

I had a local beek guru check them and he got zapped several times. He was amazed at their lack of progress since May 5th. They dont have much in the way of honey stores and even less pollen and nectar. I followed his suggestion and placed a shallow super on the hive. I sprayed the foundation with my syrup solution and placed two more jars of syrup out with a 2:1 ratio of sugar to water. They took it all in less than 24 hours. 

Today I opened them up again. They are noticeably hotter than they were before this fiasco, but not nearly as bad as after the swarm. I was able to dig around and look but I had to use smoke regularly. I kept getting rows and rows of little heads looking up at me. They are starting to fill out the shallow super. the frames in the deep super that were not filled before are moving along for the most part. It looks like they may have took some wax from one of them to use elsewhere though. I still have a laying queen. I have larva that are too small to have been laid prior to the swarm incident. Either a lot of brood have hatched and she hasnt reused those cells or the queen I have is laying at an odd pattern. The current larva cells are located in batches of hit and miss areas. And guess what else I found? More queen cells.

Im at a loss. Everyone tells me that I should have two deep supers and at last one shallow if not two. Most of it is my fault for not listening to them though. If I would have let them requeen the first time, all would be well. Now I have a half starved hive with very little to no honey stores and they are about to fight it out with a new queen. They are making me tired. I was told to get two hives, but I didnt want all that many bees in my yard. Now I wish I had gotten two.

[greg spike]

I hate to rub salt into a wound, but it kind sounds like you are digging through that hive every day or two. How comfortable would you be if someone took apart your house every two days?

I think you are right though: It's good to keep at least two hives to swap brood, and let them requeen on their own.You can always replace her later, if you don't like her.

This late in the year, you may want to think about consolidating your best frames, crowd them a little, and feed them a little once in a while to try and nurse them through the winter.

Good luck.
Note:amature opinion

[indypartridge]

Don't beat yourself up. I can tell you there are a lot of new beekeepers all over the country who are very frustrated right now. Getting bees isn't as easy as a kitten or puppy. Consider Year One to be a learning year.

I got some advice from a bee inspector and let them re queen on their own.

You'll always get different advice from different beeks. For a new colony, starting from a package, I would have recommended buying a new queen. You lose too much time waiting for them to raise a queen, have her mate and then start laying. The fact that your colony has made so many queen cells indicates that they aren't happy with the current queen. And, as you've discovered, cutting out queen cells all too often leads to a queenless hive.

I sprayed the foundation with my syrup solution and placed two more jars of syrup out with a 2:1 ratio of sugar to water. They took it all in less than 24 hours.

Have you continued feeding? I feed new colonies continually until they have two deeps drawn out.

Everyone tells me that I should have two deep supers and at last one shallow

Wintering in two deeps is pretty standard for us northerners. I don't know what kind of winter you get in your part of NC, but I wouldn't throw in the towel yet. I think you've got enough warm weather left to buy a new queen and get thru a couple of brood cycles before winter. If you continue to feed, they could build up enough to make it thru winter. Good Luck!

[bassman1977]

Sounds like a fiasco.  My suggestions: 

1.  Never, never, never cut the queen cells.  Good way to go queenless.  I never understood the reason for this.  You could always make a split with them too.

2.  Next time you get a swarm, assume they have a queen and put them in a separate hive (as you probably already learned).  Put some eggs and brood in from another hive and you can ensure that even if they don't have a queen in the swarm that at least they have the resources to make one.

The fact that your colony has made so many queen cells indicates that they aren't happy with the current queen.

This was a weird year for queens.  Aside from myself, a few other beeks I talked to in my area noticed a high rate of supercedures with our queens this year.  I had one hive that had at least one supercedure cell every time I inspected.  Couldn't win.

[debay]

I hate to rub salt into a wound, but it kind sounds like you are digging through that hive every day or two. How comfortable would you be if someone took apart your house every two days?
> I check them about once a week roughly. Never more than that.

and feed them a little once in a while to try and nurse them through the winter.
> I have fed them constantly since May 5th

I got some advice from a bee inspector and let them re queen on their own.

I would have recommended buying a new queen. You lose too much time waiting for them to raise a queen,
> The recommendation came because finding the queen may have been more difficult for a newb like me. They were so far along that if I had missed a newly hatched virgin that I may have lost the new queen anyway.

2.  Next time you get a swarm, assume they have a queen and put them in a separate hive (as you probably already learned).  Put some eggs and brood in from another hive and you can ensure that even if they don't have a queen in the swarm that at least they have the resources to make one.
> It wouldnt have made a difference. I dont have enough extra boxes to support two colonies. I might could of done it for a short time but if that split was only two small handfuls of bees. I dont think they had a chance. Dont get me wrong I wold rather have them than not, but I just dont have the resources to handle a split especially if the split booms and grows rapidly.

The fact that your colony has made so many queen cells indicates that they aren't happy with the current queen.

This was a weird year for queens.  Aside from myself, a few other beeks I talked to in my area noticed a high rate of supercedures with our queens this year.  I had one hive that had at least one supercedure cell every time I inspected.  Couldn't win.
> I had a friend that told me one of his hives split until only a few lazy bees were left with no queen. left him wondering. The hives on either side were booming. He still hasnt worked it out.

[Scadsobees]

I don't have a lot of help for the overall problems.  I dont' know everything that you've tried, so take this with a grain of salt please :).

Where did you get the bees from?  Sometime a second (or third!) generation queen can cause a change in genetics and aggressive bees.

Smoking doesn't cause swarming.  If they swarm then they  were planning on it before you smoked them.  Swarming is usually caused by the following factors: congestion, older queen, full hive.

Purchased queens (either by themselves or in a package) are often replaced by the bees.

Excessive feeding can cause swarming.  Although I don't think that 2 jars is excessive.

If the weather is bad at just the wrong time the queen may not be mated correctly, prompting a requeening.  The spotty brood pattern makes me wonder about that.

It sounds like there are a lot of things going on in this hive.  Weather, feeding, queens.... Sometimes they just can't get going.  That is why you need 3 or 4 hives :).  Nothing kicks the pants of a hive like 2 frames of capped brood.

If you can, I would try to get them to take as much feed as possible, use baggie feeders or whatever you can to get them to take several gallons quickly if possible. 1-1 syrup over to 2-1 in a couple of months.

Idea for next time: take some equipment from the existing hive if possible, hive the swarm into that and then you can recombine them later...

Don't get too beaten down by it...if you can get them through the winter they will likely explode next spring.  Then you can split into 2 or 3 hives :).  Most of us have been through situations like this, losing hives, the dejection of having most of my hives die by spring, etc...  Get through it and you will be that much more able to handle the next episode :roll:

Rick

[debay]

I don't have a lot of help for the overall problems.  I dont' know everything that you've tried, so take this with a grain of salt please :).

>Any advice is always welcome, especially if its about something thats my fault!

Where did you get the bees from?  Sometime a second (or third!) generation queen can cause a change in genetics and aggressive bees.
> I got them from Kelly Bees. I hope my queen isnt hot. Like I said they seem to be much calmer now when I work them. I was just out there and they seem to be much more aggressive coming and going from the hive than they were. its like they are in a rush. I can get next to them but I get more investigators than I used to. No stings but they like to buzz me.

Smoking doesn't cause swarming.  If they swarm then they  were planning on it before you smoked them.  Swarming is usually caused by the following factors: congestion, older queen, full hive.
>I dont mean I just smoked them, I smoked them like it was a forest fire. At one point, and by accident, I blew some hot smoke at them. I backed off at that point and just let them be. It may not have been the cause, but I know it couldnt have helped.

Purchased queens (either by themselves or in a package) are often replaced by the bees.
> I was told by a wise old beek to let them do it too. They know whats best and barring a hot queen, he said he always lets them keep their new queen. If I had of done that from day one, I would probably be eating my first batch of honey this year. maybe

Excessive feeding can cause swarming.  Although I don't think that 2 jars is excessive.

If the weather is bad at just the wrong time the queen may not be mated correctly, prompting a requeening.  The spotty brood pattern makes me wonder about that.
> It was cloudy, but here latley every evening is kind of cloudy. It had been rainy the day before and ended up raining the next day. Weather may have been a contributing factor. If that queen was in the upper super I removed she was now in the elements and wanted a place to roost.

It sounds like there are a lot of things going on in this hive.  Weather, feeding, queens.... Sometimes they just can't get going.  That is why you need 3 or 4 hives :).  Nothing kicks the pants of a hive like 2 frames of capped brood.
> I dont have another hive, but I did borrow some brood from the guy who got me started. We kept enough bees going to ensure their survival.

If you can, I would try to get them to take as much feed as possible, use baggie feeders or whatever you can to get them to take several gallons quickly if possible. 1-1 syrup over to 2-1 in a couple of months.
> Im running as many jars as I can into them right now. The two full jars I put out yesterday are both half full. When the temps start to drop Im going to put n an empty shallow super and go with gallon bags of syrup. I may even buy a feeder that holds more.

Idea for next time: take some equipment from the existing hive if possible, hive the swarm into that and then you can recombine them later...
> I found another method that may have worked...after the fact of course. I could have taken that swarm and coated them with syrup spray. Once I had the majority where they couldnt fly place them in a heap in front of the hive and give them a ramp to make it into the hive. I was told that they would have been let in because they had food to bring with them and that the queen may have been bared from entering or if she made it in she would have been dispatched quickly once her scent was discovered. It was a theory anyway. I can see where it might work.

Don't get too beaten down by it...if you can get them through the winter they will likely explode next spring.  Then you can split into 2 or 3 hives :).  Most of us have been through situations like this, losing hives, the dejection of having most of my hives die by spring, etc...  Get through it and you will be that much more able to handle the next episode :roll:
> Next year I plan to have at least one lang hive and maybe a top bar for kicks. Lesson learned.

Rick