nuc failure

fermentedhiker · June 14, 2009, 01:15:29 PM

I ordered a russian/carnie queen from Taber's this spring in order to do a split of my overwintered hive. Unfortunately the overwintered hive crashed in late March. A friend beek made a two frame nuc from one of his hives to provide a home for my now homeless queen. They accepted her and although she took more than two weeks to start laying she did end up getting things back on track. So I brought the nuc home two weeks ago and set them up in my apiary. I was concerned about the lack of activity but didn't want to disturb them too much this early. So yesterday when I was inspecting my two hives from packages I also did an inspection of the nuc. It was quite disheartening. Barely 2 1/2 frames of bees in the five frame nuc. No worker brood on any of the five frames. No eggs that I could see(although I have to admit with my eyesight I could have missed some. All I saw was a few dozen capped drone cells and one swarm capped swarm cell on the bottom of a frame. I was unable to locate the marked queen(not a shocker, but with so few bees it shouldn't have been that hard). Her progeny are in evidence as the new workers are definitely not from my friends hive his are italian looking ferals and these bees are black as can be.

It's hard to imagine that they would have swarmed with such small numbers, but anything is possible I guess. The only other conclusion I could come to is that she got pinched by the rocking frames in the nuc during transit. I'm planning on checking them in a few days to see the status of the queen cell. I'm concerned that there won't be enough workers for this hive to get back on it's feet even if the new queen turns out to be a good one. I'm also concerned that they won't be able to properly cover and care for a frame of brood from one of the other hives. Stealing a frame with brood and bees would solve this I guess, but starting a fight that would leave the hive even weaker worries me a bit. Any thoughts on how to successfully introduce a frame of bees into an existing hive without starting a war. I suppose I could steal one frame from each of the two hives and intersperse them with the existing frames spraying everyone with sugar syrup and heavy smoke and hope for the best.

Suggestions are welcome.
FH

Michael Bush · June 14, 2009, 03:51:10 PM

Crowding or honey bound will cause a small hive to swarm. In other words you feed them too much or don't give them room to grow. Sometimes they abscond. Sometimes they just move next door.

fermentedhiker · June 14, 2009, 08:39:26 PM

Thanks for the reply Michael. It doesn't look like they absconded since most or at least half of the bees are still in the nuc. I don't think they were overcrowded, they had two frames of honey leftover from my deadout and two brood frames from my friends hive and one frame of foundation(which they had one side 70% drawn but not filled with anything). The two frames of brood are now almost empty with exception of the capped drone cells(one of which I got emerge which was cool). It looks for all intents and purposes like they swarmed which just strikes me as odd since the weather has been lousy, barely one good day a week in the last three weeks. You wouldn't think they would feel the resources where right for swarming, but what do I know, I'm not a bee :)

Brian D. Bray · June 15, 2009, 02:53:42 AM

A hive that is crowded due to being honey bound will swarm regardless of the weather. Put an empty frame in the middle of the brood chamber and they will build a new brood frame for the new queen and you'll then have a 3 frame brood chamber in a 5 frame nuc which is what it should be. BTW, feeding a hive of anysize during a honey flow is a good way to make it honey bound, one of the reasons I keep recommending limiting feeding so much syrup. I feed them 2 gallons with about a week between each gallon so they can convert some of it to comb or brood feeding and they don't get honey bound.

Another way of putting it is that, in my Area the spring flow ends in mid-May and the Summer flow (blackberries, among others) starts. Feeding should have stopped by mid-May, at the latest, or the bees will quickly become honey bound once they start foraging on the blackberries.

fermentedhiker · June 20, 2009, 03:05:08 PM

Well it turns out I was completely wrong. I did another inspection today without smoke so it would be easier to find the queen. Bingo there she was wandering around with her court. Still barely two frames worth of bees and hardly any capped brood or larvae. I couldn't see any eggs again, but with my eyesight that might just not be practical. I'm beginning to suspect the they just aren't enough foragers to properly supply a brood cycle that can get ahead of losses. The current foragers are the original workers from the donor hive and the nurse bees are definitely her highness's progeny, black as night(russian/carnie from Taber's). So I guess I'm back to trying to add a frame of capped brood from my Russian package that's doing well. My only concern is that there isn't enough nurse bees to properly cover a bunch of brood. I suspect the best option is to switch positions between the nuc and the Russian hive at the same time I steal a frame of brood. Of course the thought of moving the hive by myself is a bit daunting, but I guess I'll just have to figure out a way to do it that won't involve the hive crashing to the ground and the violence that would undoubtedly ensue.

Highlandsfreedom · June 20, 2009, 04:49:26 PM

I had the same issue with a nuc I am nursing back to health it was a swarm the size of a softball.... they would not build any more wax for two weeks only enough for the swarm to stand on.......
I was getting frusterated and as a last ditch effort I added a whole frame of brood with the bees still on it the queen was elsewhare I saw her and put it into the nuc in place of a blank frame inbetween their brood frames and 3 weeks later all the brood has mostly hatched and is forraging and the queen filled up the whole frame with new eggs........ it worked!!!!!!

Brian D. Bray · June 20, 2009, 11:37:29 PM

Quote from: fermentedhiker on June 20, 2009, 03:05:08 PM
The current foragers are the original workers from the donor hive and the nurse bees are definitely her highness's progeny, black as night(russian/carnie from Taber's). So I guess I'm back to trying to add a frame of capped brood from my Russian package that's doing well. My only concern is that there isn't enough nurse bees to properly cover a bunch of brood. I suspect the best option is to switch positions between the nuc and the Russian hive at the same time I steal a frame of brood. Of course the thought of moving the hive by myself is a bit daunting, but I guess I'll just have to figure out a way to do it that won't involve the hive crashing to the ground and the violence that would undoubtedly ensue.

You've solved your problem, that's what I'd do.

fermentedhiker · June 28, 2009, 09:57:01 AM

Well I figured it was time for an update. The nuc still just wasn't building up so I went ahead and swapped locations with the Russian hive. I solved my problem of how to move the hive by myself by disassembling it completely. I put the frames of bees in a couple nuc boxes while I carried the hive to the other end of the row. Then I just put everything back together in reverse order being careful to put the frames back in the same way they came out. I did also trade a frame of mostly capped brood from the Russian hive for a frame of capped honey that I had given to the nuc which they weren't even covering. I was amazed at how many bees moved over to the nuc. I know it's how everyone says it will work, but it's something to see it for yourself. The front of the nuc was literally covering in workers from the Russian hive in less than a minute of me putting in the old hives location. Hopefully the Russian hive doesn't get setback too much. The returning foragers were literally stacked up on top of each other waiting to crowd into the nuc.

So now I'm feeling a little better about my chances to get this nuc built up in time for winter. That is if it ever stops raining long enough for the bees to get any foraging time in. There must be something flowing at the moment since they ignore the boardman I have setup away from the hives, on sunny days anyways.

I also got a call from a guy I was supposed to do a cutout for this spring that ended up being a winter deadout. A swarm just moved into the old location in the wall of his barn, so If all goes well I will get another hive out of it. Which will bring me up to four......yippee.