No eggs and no larva Question?

harvey · June 20, 2010, 08:47:48 PM

I have one hive started from a nuc plus some bee's from a queenless hive that I shook out after installing the nuc. The nuc had a carny queen in it and the brood looked good when I installed it. All stages. Now there are no eggs or larva. Very few and spotted capped worker cells, some capped drone cells, spotty but as many as the worker cells. I think I found two capped queen cells, they look like peanuts. One on the bottom of a frame and one maybe midway. These were frame 9? Best thing to do just wait? once a queen cell is capped how long till it emerges? Then probably a week or more till I might see eggs? should i add a comb of eggs at this point or wait? Thanks all.

iddee · June 20, 2010, 08:57:22 PM

You should see eggs about 25 days after the cell is capped. Adding a frame of eggs and brood never hurts.

bee-nuts · June 20, 2010, 09:00:04 PM

Dont add a frame of brood unless its all capped. You dont want to have more queen cells reared that will hatch and kill you new mated queen from exiting queen cells. Maybe you injured the queen when you installing the nuc. I try to put a frame that will be easy to pull out on one side of the box so you can start pulling frames without rolling bees and killing or injuring queen. Maybe some fighting from queenless hive. If they are raising queens at this point thats a good thing from your description.

harvey · June 20, 2010, 09:31:25 PM

Thanks, after doing some more reading I am inclined to add a frame of eggs and larva, to do this do I add the worker bees that are on the frame too or do I try and brush them off first? Should I wait a week or two?

iddee · June 20, 2010, 09:40:44 PM

Bee-nuts, what the heck are you talking about. If they have queen cells or a queen, mated or not, they won't start new cells. The frame should definitely have eggs.
Why wait. The sooner you get it in there, the better.Many beeks leave the nurse bees on the frame. I do not. I remove them and add only the brood.

harvey · June 20, 2010, 09:45:57 PM

Thanks Iddee, Will put one in tomorrow, I will try and leave the nurse bees in the original hive. Now if the queen cells that are in there are good next week I shouldn't see more queen cells? Course even if I do they need a queen one way or the other. Thanks again all.

greenbtree · June 20, 2010, 09:48:43 PM

Listen to Iddee. I have had great luck adding eggs and brood to questionable hives. Thank you Iddee!

JC

bee-nuts · June 21, 2010, 05:54:54 AM

Iddee

Maybe my advice is bad because I lack years of experience or I dont understand the original post.

That said, the reason I say not to add frames with eggs or young larva is they may build another queen cell that will result in the death of the new queen that will hatch from the existing queen cells. This has happened to me when I have jumped the gun. I found a colony that I thought was queen-less, added a frame of larva and eggs, and upon next inspection I found a beautiful pattern of larva and a just hatched queen cell from the brood frame I introduced. Now I have a poor queen with crap brood pattern that killed the queen that was obviously mating after a swarm that I missed or was superseded. If you add a frame of viable larva to make a queen when a mating queen is in the works you may just screw yourself over. a colony will raise queen cells if they dont have a queen yet and the result will be a new virgin killing the new queen and screwing yourself. Why add viable larva when there are queen cells in the works. By adding capped brood you may keep workers from laying if the colony is truly in a queen-less situation so you can add a queen if really ends up queen less.

If you pull a frame of eggs or young larva up above the brood nest if will often result in a queen cell. If there is not sufficient queen scent in the colony from a new virgin they will build a queen cell. a new virgin will seek out queen cells after they hatch but if there are none it will go about mating. If this happens and you inserted a frame of eggs and they build another cell it will hatch and kill your new queen. Now you just set yourself back farther with an emergency queen that may be crap on top of the set back. Why add eggs or larva when as the poster stated "I think I found two capped queen cells, they look like peanuts. One on the bottom of a frame and one maybe midway.".

From the description given, it sounds like there is a queen injured, failing, or otherwise, and the colony knows what its doing by raising a new queen. Why screw it all up. Maybe Im wrong and this person should add a frame with eggs. From my experience which surely is not enough to argue that I am certainly qualified to say "listen to me, I know everything" but I think I have screwed my self more than once out of the first hatched virgin. Last year I made a nuc with what at the time I thought was a swarm cell and now know was a cell made from a frame of brood moved up above the brood nest. When I made the nuc hoping to avoid a swarm with inexperience, I added frames of open larva from the colony. When I inspected the nucleus colony later I saw that it had raised more queen cells which were likely started right before the cell I made the nuc with hatched. Im sure one of these killed the newly hatched virgin or just mated queen because it was one month and one week till I found brood int the colony. As already mentioned, just recently I added a frame to a colony that I thought was queen less, they made a queen cell from old larva instead of very young larva which I know for a fact because young larva was on one side of frame and the cell was made from older larva on the other side. Next inspection showed the cell recently hatched along with all kinds of larva in a great pattern which would not be there from a just hatched virgin but from a queen that was there all the time to begin with. Now I have the worst gunshot brood pattern I have seen to date and they are raising another queen to fix my good intentioned screw up.

Thats what Im thinking. If its ill advised, so be it and I apologize for it, because Im only trying to help a new beek not jump the gun and screw them self for the season. Lets see, new queen soon to emerge from cells described and laying in two weeks. Another queen emerges from frame inserted turns out to be crap and kills a good queen and takes another two weeks to lay. Now colony has to raise another queen and another month later a decent queen may be laying. I would wait for the queen cells made by a colony that knows what its doing to hatch. By adding capped brood you keep young bees in colony, prevent laying workers, and keep the colony able to except a queen if you need to introduce one. Yes I have read and heard that colonies will tear down cells if they dont need them but them explain why they will raise a cell above a brood nest and let it hatch and kill your queen for no good reason, which is common knowledge. There are rules of thumb but rules are made to be broken and happens every day. If you know no better and dont catch what I have, you would think you just saved the day when you just should have been patient and waited.

Sorry if silly, inexperienced, uneducated advice has been stated and given.
Bee-nuts

Jim134 · June 21, 2010, 06:52:23 AM

Quote from: iddee on June 20, 2010, 09:40:44 PM
Bee-nuts, what the heck are you talking about. If they have queen cells or a queen, mated or not, they won't start new cells. The frame should definitely have eggs.
Why wait. The sooner you get it in there, the better.Many beeks leave the nurse bees on the frame. I do not. I remove them and add only the brood.

Quote from: greenbtree on June 20, 2010, 09:48:43 PM
Listen to Iddee. I have had great luck adding eggs and brood to questionable hives. Thank you Iddee!

JC

This good advice just my $0.02

harvey.........

This may help you out

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Jim134 · June 21, 2010, 07:25:17 AM

Bee-nuts....

>but them explain why they will raise a cell above a brood nest and let it hatch and kill your queen for no good reason, which is common knowledge.<

Why ARE you spiting the brood nest ?

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

bee-nuts · June 21, 2010, 08:54:33 AM

To raise a queen cell?

iddee · June 21, 2010, 10:00:35 AM

Well, maybe one day you will be able to figure out what really went on in your hive.

bee-nuts · June 21, 2010, 11:40:20 AM

It was pretty obvious what happened iddee but thanks for the gesture of goodwill.

I talked this same brood frame introduction thing over with a local commercial beek before I did it and I was warned that they could raise a queen cell even if there was a new virgin running around and I could lose her. Maybe theres something in the water here.

harvey · June 21, 2010, 04:03:45 PM

Ok well if there is still some capped worker brood, could I get away with waiting for these two cells to hatch? My only concern with being in a hurry was to prevent a laying worker. If I can wait a week or two then I could see what comes of these two cells that look like queen cells to me. There are smaller than some of the italian queen cells I have seen but the hive had a carnolian queen. Would that make a difference?