Small cell to large cell.

[BjornBee]

I want pictures, proof, or something.

Someone show me where bees have raised normal worker cells in drone comb. I have never seen it.
Bees raise worker brood in worker cells. Of course that could be in the honey supers, since much of honey supers have been drawn on regular comb also.

But has anyone seen bees raise regular workers in drone cells? Not me. Ever think what the bees would do if you just filled a hive with nothing but drawn drone cell comb? Think that would be good? Isn't that about you do with taking smallcell bees and forcing them on much larger comb?

Would it change the retained heat, function, or any other dynamics in which brood is normally reared? What about health of worker bees raised in drone cells? I guess since I never seen worker brood in drone comb, the bees must know more than me. Certainly there is a reason though.

Put in a frame of drone comb in the center of the brood nest. The bees will either make drones, or will fill in the cells with nectar. But they will not raise workers.

So why do we place so much "proof" or claims on some guy putting smallcell bees on regular comb and forcing these bees to suddenly raise workers in much larger cells than they did previously? What dynamics or other factors (as asked above) could be detrimental to the bees by doing this? Certainly there is much more to this than just throwing smallcell bees raised on much smaller comb on regular comb, then drumming the chant that it shows that bees can not survive on larger comb. That is about as bad as something could be in regards to "junk science".  

The bees will not raise workers in drone cells, or much bigger cells. There must be a reason. And having a beekeeper doing that against what the bees know is detrimental, is really missing what the bees are showing us.

So lets get over this whole idea that taking smallcell bees and forcing them back on larger cell comb in attempts to once again justify or make wild claims about smallcell. There is more to the story. And we will never know how the workers immune system, their natural ability to fight disease or pests, and many other factors, could be compromised.

Some suggest that it takes bees three years to regress to smallcell. But they expect smallcell bees not to take three years to go the other direction. They just throw them on large comb, have bad results, then make claims justifying smallcell bees.

Bees show us what they want. And forcing bees to do something they normally know is not good, should be a clue for us to follow.

[VolunteerK9]

We need to start talking about SC flies-cuz this dead horse that's been kicked incessantly over that past few days is sure to start producing some. Geez

[AllenF]

What would happen if you put all 10 drone frames in a new hive, or a new package?   Maybe if someone with lots of bees could try that for fun, shake some in a new hive with green frames to see if they take to it or not.

[BjornBee]

We need to start talking about SC flies-cuz this dead horse that's been kicked incessantly over that past few days is sure to start producing some. Geez

What else besides bees are you wishing to discuss? I come here to discuss bees. Not sure why you come here if not for discussions like this.

Best part is, if you are unhappy or disinterested in a particular thread, you can simply not particpate. If I crapped on discussions I thought was nonsense, silly, not worth the time, I'd probably get into some kind of trouble.

So Geez.....cut some slack and show some respect for the people making an effort here to continue discussions and ideas. That is what the forum is all about.   ;)

The topic has not been discussed as you may think it has..... :roll:

[BjornBee]

What would happen if you put all 10 drone frames in a new hive, or a new package?   Maybe if someone with lots of bees could try that for fun, shake some in a new hive with green frames to see if they take to it or not.

I think that would be interesting also. I have never done it with a full box of fully drawn drone comb.

I know that if you use nothing but drone foundation, they will ignore it and draw the size they desire over top the pattern.

And if you offer drawn drone comb in the center of the brood chamber, between two regular sized worker cell comb, they will either fill with honey or make drone. They will not make workers in drone sized comb.

BTW...this thread was started due to the once again idea, recently mentioned by another beekeeper here on this forum, that they want to take smallcell bees and place them back on to larger cell sized comb in some effort to prove something. I'm trying to show that bees will do everything in their power to NOT make workers in abnormally enlarged cells such as drone cells. This must be for a reason.

[buzzbee]

As long as this thread remains as a debate it will go on. If it's an attempt to stir the pot and attack someone,it will be dealt with as we go.
Why did we not just answer in the thread where the question was asked about putting small bees on large comb?

[AllenF]

So does any one have 10 frames of drawn drone frames?  I only have 2.

[deknow]

Why did we not just answer in the thread where the question was asked about putting small bees on large comb?

...unless i missed something (which is entirely possible), because no one asked a question, or suggested that putting bees exclusively on drone comb will cause the bees to raise workers in these cells.

it's an interesting question to ask...but it is yet another straw man argument.  vague references to what some unspecified person promoting sc said or wrote at some unspecified time and place in the past has little bearing on anything.  if someone asked the question that mike wants answered, I'd appreciate a link or a quote so i know where we are.

root did have something to say on this topic...from my 1888 copy of the abc of bee culture by a.i. root:

Several times it has been suggested that we enlarge the race of honey - bees, by giving them larger cells; and some circumstances seem to indicate that something may be done in this direction, although I have little hope of any permanent enlargement in size, unless we combined with the idea of selecting the largest bees to propagate from, as given a few figures back.  By making the cells smaller than ordinarily, we can get small bees with very little trouble; and I have seen a whole nucleus of bees so small is to be really laughable, just because the comb they were hatched from, was set at an angle so that one side was concave and the other convex.  The small bees came from the concave side.  Their light, active movements, as they sported in front of the hive, made them a pretty and amusing site for those fond of curiosities.  Worker bees reared in drone cells are, if I'm correct, sometimes extra-large in size; but as to whether we can make them permanently larger by such a course, I'm inclined to doubt.  The difficulty, at present seems to be the tendency to rearing a greater quantity of useless drones.  By having the hive furnished entirely with worker comb, we can so nearly prevent the production of drones that is safe enough to call it a complete remedy.

it's worth nothing that root observed worker cells to be 5 cells within an inch (5.08mm) or smaller...since we are now seeing a standard cell size in foundation at 5.4mm, it seems as if root was reporting on what was afoot in his day.

there is also this article from beeworld in 1933 that talks directly of enlarging the bees by enlarging the comb.
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/historical-data-on-the-influence-of-cell-size/the-influence-of-cell-size-part-1/

every beekeeping book pre1900 pretty much agrees...worker cells are 5.08mm or smaller.  even a fairly recent publication by the a.i. root company (observation hives...i think 1999) mentions that the bees huber used were likely smaller than our modern bees.

regardless of what effect one thinks 5.4mm foundation has or doesn't have on bees, the historical record is quite clear.  bees have been made bigger....both through enlarging foundation and likely also via selection.

deknow

[BjornBee]

every beekeeping book pre1900 pretty much agrees...worker cells are 5.08mm or smaller.  even a fairly recent publication by the a.i. root company (observation hives...i think 1999) mentions that the bees huber used were likely smaller than our modern bees.

regardless of what effect one thinks 5.4mm foundation has or doesn't have on bees, the historical record is quite clear.  bees have been made bigger....both through enlarging foundation and likely also via selection.

deknow

So what about it? Not sure how these tidbits of information plays into the conversation at hand.

Not sure what this has to do with the claims made by another that 3 year regressed smallcell bees died upon immediately putting them back on large cell foundation. My point in making this thread was to discuss the often repeated "observation" claimed by one person who had bees die after placing smallcell bees on regular foundation.

Since I know of nobody actually taking bees and forcing them onto nothing but drone comb, and the fact that bees themselves will not make worker brood if offered drone comb placed in the middle of the brood chamber (I have done that), then I offer up the discussion to perhaps discuss why this is.

I certainly feel that forcing smallcell bees back onto large cell comb, may be compared to forcing bees to make workers by offering nothing but drone comb. I think it would be reasonable to think that doing either one of those procedures may have detrimental consequences impacted by unnatural forces. But I hardly think that forcing smallcell bees back onto large cell comb is some rationalization, justification, or proof of anything, other than what we already know, that bees do not like to do this and may actually have negative outcomes.

That....is the discussion at hand.

I do not like calling out individuals. But if anyone replying to this thread does not know who Dennis is, maybe you should lean hard to asking questions and leave the statements at the door.....  :roll: It is not vague comments or of the straw man variety, even though with any discussion of smallcell it usually is thick with such matters.  ;)

Discussing observations of Huber has nothing to do with backing up the claims of what smallcell does. So they had different cell sizes years ago. That is nice. But way off topic. I'll start a thread about natural comb which I am a fan of and maybe we can include such trivial matters.  :-D