excluder or no excluder

[rgy]

We put the honey super on just short of two weeks ago.  This is the hot hive in the "They turned on me" thread, what little I saw before running away like a school girl was they have drawn comb on most of the frames.  I currently do not have an excluder on, should I put one on or not?  If I don't, what do I do if She lays up there?  It seems a lot of people don't use the exlcluder and eggs / larvae are filtered out when harvested.

as a newbee, I'm thinking that i will be able to put another honey super on before long.  am i over optimistic?  There are about 20 hives just down the road and I noticed that they have the second honey super on last week.

[D Coates]

Great observation of the nearby apiary.  Using excluders is a personal choice.  Some people swear by the them, others at them.  I do use excluders on occasion if I've noticed a queen likes to lay in the supers.  I'll make sure she's out of the supers and put an excluder on there.  The brood will definitely motivate the bees through the excluder.  Once they're used to it, no problem. 

There IS a catch though.  If you have brood and an upper entrance the bees will make one one of the eggs into a queen.  To avoid this don't have an upper entrance if you know there are eggs in a super that you're putting above an excluder.  I found this out the hard way but got a good queen out of it and learned a great lesson.

Once I know there are no eggs above the excluder I'll give them an upper entrance to make it easier to get to the supers.  Personally, I won't harvest a frame that has brood in it.  I put it back on the hive and wait for it to hatch out then and take it with the next harvest.  It's a little hassle but I really don't want "brood goo" in my honey.

[slacker361]

brood goo          nice       :lau:

[Sparky]

To give a more accurate answer it would be better to know if this is a first year package or is a established hive ? If you do not use a excluder and they need to build out frames with comb this is to your advantage. This will motivate the bees to move more into that box. The brood will be in the middle frames and honey in the outer frames if you want to harvest it.

[CountryBee]

Queen excluder, honey excluder.  I don't use a queen excluder on any of my hives.  The queen doesn't lay on any of the outer frames usually and the top one.  When the workers start filling honey she doesn't have room to lay brood.  On the lower brood super there is honey around the brood on mine but not in the upper ones. :-D  I think it is not natural for one and I am now using top entrances with good results in NY.

[doak]

It is easy to tell honey cells from brood cells. Just don't harvest any frames with brood.
I have never used an excluder on a regular basis, on a few occasions, yes. :)doak

[FRAMEshift]

Queen excluder, honey excluder.  I don't use a queen excluder on any of my hives.  .... :-D  I think it is not natural for one and I am now using top entrances with good results in NY.

I think this is right.  The queen won't go further than she needs to.

[BjornBee]

Many beekeepers, after having one bad experience with a queen excluder, never try again or continue to bad-mouth queen excluders perpetually.

Many new beekeepers follow this scenario: They install a package of bees on foundation, wait till they fill a certain number of frames, then place another box of foundation, and wait till they fill this box a certain amount, then place a queen excluder and another super of foundation.

Problem with this scenario is that many times, by the time the first super is placed, the main flow is dropping off, the summer solstice has passed, and the bees are reluctant to draw another box of foundation. They would rather start back-filling the brood chamber in July and August, and save as much resources as possible. And so of course then you hear the dreaded "My bees refuse to work through the excluder" and a host of other claims.

If an excluder is to be used, ESPECIALLY if drawing new foundation, then the bees need to be in a heavy flow. The first year, many new beekeepers miss this timing. Certainly having a strong bee hive coming out of winter, and having the flow to work the supers, allows much better results with a queen excluder. (And feeding never stimulates the queen and bees as much as a flow will. Feeding does augment the flow and allows the bees to draw comb and make brood even in bad rainy days, etc. It evens out so production never stops even with long period of spring rainy days. But when the flow stops outside, feeding inside does not have the same wax forcing ability.)

Many things impact a queen excluders results. Here are a couple tips:

*Use an upper entrance (not top entrance) above the excluder to allow the bees access without going through the excluder. Many strong hives can benefit from the top boxes just simply slid a quarter inch to the back, allowing an entrance and additional ventilation. If your bees are strong enough for supers, then they should have no problems defending this space.

*Use a plastic excluder turned sideways. Instead of laying it on the boxes as you normally would, turn it 90 degrees. This will allow an inch in the front and back of the hive for the bees to access the supers without actually going through the excluder. You can not do this with wooden bound metal excluders. But plastic excluders are perfect for this.

Excluders allow you to keep brood out of the supers. This allows you to store the supers many times without any treatments against wax moths. Clean comb, void of any cocoons from the brood rearing process, are usually ignored by wax moths. The wax moths prefer the organic matter of the brood comb.

Excluders also allow you to remove the honey at your timing. I gave up the fall honey crop years ago. I prefer much earlier planning in getting the bees ready for winter. In light of all the problems we see today with introduced pests and disease, means not having brood in your supers in late June or early July, when the main flow is over in this region. Many times, brood will be in the supers if no excluder is used, delaying harvesting, magnifying effort and cost.

Many beekeepers form an opinion of excluder in their first season. Once you have a strong over-wintered colony, excluders are much more user friendly, and definitely have their place in beekeeping. Proper understanding, manipulating their use for maximum results, and NOT putting them on after the main flow has passed while expecting the bees to draw another box of foundation at a time they would rather back fill the brood chamber as they prepare for winter, may have you appreciate the excluder in the future.

[CountryBee]

BjornBee,
    Do you use excluders on all of your hives?  Do you have good results?  How big in PA do you winter your bees, mine are 2 deeps in NY.  Then med for honey on top in spring but no excluders.  Please let me know how you do.  Thanks. :)

[Natalie]

Some queens will lay in honey supers regardless of how much room they have, I have one hive where the queen will lay in each frame no matter if there is room in the brood boxes or not.
I don't want brood in the honey supers because then I can't use it for cut comb and for the same reasons bjorn stated.
I have used excluders turned sideways with an upper entrance when I want to keep brood out of the honey supers and have never had an issue with the bees going up through them.
I also don't have any problems with them filling the honey supers.
As bjorn said, its about the timing.
I recently attended a talk where the commercial beek talked about how he uses excluders on all of his hives and he has a booming honey business.
He brought up that old saying about about how people call queen excluders honey excluders and he said they probably don't know how to use them, he too mentioned how important the timing is.

[CountryBee]

Yes, you are right about a queen excluder and cut comb.  I am just relying on info from older semi-retired beekeepers helping me out and books from late 1800.  But then from my own apiary out back my honey bees do not like to go thru those excluders, I have 2 metal ones.  I am learning newer ways of raising bees than how the older beekeepers taught me, like I am using top entrances now instead of bottoms and having great results.  First I split the hives in half and put tops and compared, they grew 2-3 frames faster in 1 month time each.  I think it is easier not having to travel up 2 deeps to work on the frames at hand.  Also I do not use excluders, so the bees do not have to go thru them either.  I probably could use them with the top entrances without any problems now because the bees enter the top now anyway, above the excuder.  It would only keep the queen down, but it might starve the queen if the workers do not want to put as much honey below the excluder as above it.  Not sure, it is new to me with a top entrance.  I just remember all the years before when I used the excluder with a bottom entrance it took forever for the bees to draw and work on the mediums above it.  Please let me know if you have info on using it with a top entrance, I want to learn also.  That is the only way to move forward, to learn more from people that do it.  Thanks. :)

[Kathyp]

they have their uses.  i just hate messing with extra stuff that i don't need.  i usually just do the chunk/cut comb for me and a couple of family members. 

CB, if you do use and upper entrance next year  make sure it's small.  something like a 1 in cut out in the inner cover...
if you don't watch the size, they are great for encouraging robbing.  don't just prop a stick under the cover  :-)

[BjornBee]

I think it is not natural for one and I am now using top entrances with good results in NY.

Can you tell me what is "not natural" about queens excluders?

While your at it, can you tell me why top entrances "are" natural, since you mentioned them in the same sentence?

Thank you.

[CountryBee]

Wish you would answer my questions first, I asked first.  Anyway, when I go get a wild hive in the woods or catch a developed swarm the bees do not have any kind of separation(excluder) in the tree or under the porches where I find them.  When I find honey bees in a tree the entrance is usually at the top of where I have to cut the tree down to get them out, unless the tree is already lying on the ground, then the entrance is at the end or at a top hole that used to be a brance hole.  Always used bottom entrances until this year, thought I would try something new, people keep learning.  So far the hives with the top entrances are doing better than the ones with the bottom entrances, and I do not have any bearding problems like I used to before.  I am still learning, I am young.  I might be wrong, that is why I read and experiment and ask you and the rest of the people here questions, you have been doing different things probably than I.  I will keep learning, maybe failing, but not giving up.  Then eventually getting a system down that works the best for me, not for everyone, just for me.  Thanks for asking and listening BjornBee, I know you have your own company and all and you still help and give here.  That is why I ask you questions all the time, I am still learning from different people.  Thank you, CountryBee

[BjornBee]

Country,

The reason I asked, was because the moment you take that colony out of a tree, it becomes an unnatural scenario for the bees.

Obviously we as beekeepers manipulate bees for a certain production value. We expand the brood chamber way beyond what they desire in nature. We force them on straight comb that they would never build themselves in feral colonies. We suppress swarming by the very nature of how we keep bees. So my point is, we do many things that are very unnatural to bees, in keeping them out of ease, production, etc. I just found it rather odd that with all we do to bees, that excluders would be considered "unnatural".

As for top entrances, studies (right out of Cornell - in your backyard) have clearly shown that bees do not favor top entrances. Side by side swarm traps, one being a bottom entrance and the other a top entrance, had the bees choosing the bottom entrance. Most figure this is just imprinted on the bees that they should choose a cavity that does not have rain water issues, perhaps heat retention issues, etc.

Now, since we DO keep bees unnaturally, does a top entrance benefit when we artificially enlarge the colony chamber sometimes many times more than what they desire? Sure. I use upper entrances when I put on my supers. Beekeepers have been sliding honey supers providing an extra entrance, or using emrie shim like devices for eons.

Providing a few extra entrances when you have 4-5 supers on is just good management. It helps with ventilation, crowding, etc.

Translating that into the idea (as some have) that bees are better off or it's more "natural" to only have top entrances throughout the year, goes against everything the bees desire. And some benefits such as heat retention at the top of the brood chamber in late winter, may be lost, making it outright detrimental.

Much of the top entrance hype, has evolved from moisture concerns, evolving into "top entrance" promotion for one reason or another. (or some notion that it is the best way to deal with critters) If beekeepers would stop feeding syrup in cold weather, there would be very little moisture concerns.

Bees normally propolize the cavity airtight. If it were not for us keeping bees in hives that we constantly break the seal, bees would make that hive about airtight as they could over time.

As for most of your feral colonies being found with top entrances, that goes against my figures, as well as years of studies. Maybe the bees had limited option for cavities and selected these sites out of necessity. But it certain is not what they prefer.

Hope this helps.

[CountryBee]

BjornBee,
    Thanks for all the info, like I said I keep reading and learning and you know a lot more about this than I.  The only sentance that I did not agree with was "As for top entrances, studies (right out of Cornell - in your backyard) have clearly shown that bees do not favor top entrances."  Honey bees may favor bottom entrances but I do not trust anything that Cornell has to say about anything.  I have lived in NY my whole life, I have been other places but lived here.  Cornell lies many times over just to get government $ to stay in business.  Just 2 weeks ago I was in Ithica and drove by the hill where cornell is and you would not believe how many protest signs there where out this time.  This time it was the farmers with the milking hoses.  Thank you so much for explaining about the hives and everything, I have to keep learning from people like you.  Thanks again. :)