New box on the bottom?

[AliciaH]

I was reading Harvey's thread about his cutout in the woods and picked up on the comment about bees building down.  It makes sense when they start at the top of whatever home they choose to attach the wax to begin with, but with some of my other bee issues, I'd never transferred that process to a hive situation. 

I was taught that when the first deep (with a new package) was about 7 frames built out to put a new box on top and move two of the built up frames to the new top box to encourage the bees up (lots of other details with that but I'm sure you know them).

Now, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning, but am I understanding that the bees will build out faster if the new box goes on the bottom?  I feel silly for asking, but I'd love to do better by the girls and would love the input.

[Kathyp]

it's not silly.  we all were taught to put the next box on top.  then we were taught to swap them around at some point, especially if they weren't filling the boxes properly.

it wasn't until i started digging bees out of walls that i realized how wrong that was.  by putting your next brood box under, you help keep the natural conformation of the hive.  honey above, brood down the middle.  if you put your box above, especially if they have stored honey in the first box, you are almost guaranteed to have problems.  the queen won't go over the honey lots of times and the bees, who want to work from top to bottom, have to do something that is not natural for them.  they have to abandon the natural structure of the hive and start over at the top.

it is a little harder to keep track of the new box on the bottom.  honestly, if things look good on top, i don't bother with the bottom.  if i pull a few frames from the top box i can usually look into the 2nd and see as much as i need to see.

[AliciaH]

Thanks, Kathy!  I have a lot more hives this year and have been noticing as the season goes on that if I want to find the queen to look in the bottom deep.  Same goes for any swarm or supersedure cells.  It's amazing what a bigger basis of comparison will do!  Combined with your explanation, it all makes more sense. 

I'm looking forward to next spring and trying this with my new splits (I need another experiment like I need another hole in my head!).  I think it would be interesting to start a couple of splits and build up with the new deep on top, and any others I start build up with the new deeps on the bottom.  Having never done it your way, it will be fun to compare!

Thanks, again, Kathy!

[CountryBee]

Is it true the queen will move down to lay brood?  I thought she moves up and if you want her to go down in the spring after winter you must switch the bottom two deeps to help her?

[iddee]

She will always lay at the bottom of the stores. As they consume the stores, she moves up. As new stores come in, they will be stored at the top and she will move down.

[Kathyp]

also, as she needs more room, the bees will build down to accommodate both her needs and the need to store.  it is natural for them to move downward during spring and summer and to move upward to be close to the stores in winter.  then they start over.  that's why swapping boxes is also usually counter-productive in an established hive.

[AllenF]

Don't forget as she is laying her way to the bottom, they are storing honey in the old brood comb.  If you are thinking of always putting the new boxes on bottom.

[CountryBee]

Thanks!  I have to learn so much all over again, thanks for teaching. Country :)