Treating for Nosema this fall

alfred · October 15, 2010, 01:19:43 PM

I am just curious as to what the folks will be doing. I haven't worried about this much in the past and have been on and off about treating. This year though I have decided to treat with Fumagilin. The stuff is expensive and apparently you need to feed for several weeks in order to kill off the parasite.

Now that there has been a clear link made to CCD it seem doubly important to pay attention to.

I would love to hear thoughts.
I would also love to hear about any alternative natural treatments being used and the reasoning and reliability of those treatments.

Thanks so much for participating.

Kathyp · October 15, 2010, 01:31:47 PM

i don't see the point in treating for something i see no signs of. i picked other because i'm not sure what i would do.

charlotte · October 15, 2010, 03:03:25 PM

I voted other--
I treat with fumaglin B and also add honey bee healthy & mineral salt to my fall syrup mix. I personally have had very good results with this method.

bulldog · October 15, 2010, 08:35:20 PM

i see no reason to give them medicine if they are not sick, but then again i'm brand new at this and therefore i don't know any better

AllenF · October 15, 2010, 08:42:27 PM

I mix it in there when I have time to think about it. But I don't always feed all the bees, only if they need it. It can not hurt to have it in the brood boxes if something breaks out in mid February. I had it hit in late march last year and had to drench it on the bees to save the hives left. If it is in their food already, then you stop it before it starts.

AllenF · October 15, 2010, 08:43:18 PM

But I have not fed yet this fall.......

danno · October 18, 2010, 09:29:22 AM

I have always treated for nosema both spring and fall and had as high as 100% over winter. Last fall I skipped it and lost 13 colonies or 50%.

tecumseh · October 19, 2010, 07:12:19 AM

I know a frame feeder ain't a diagnostic tool, but when I see a pile of dead bees in the bottom of a feeder and the hive itself seems to be struggling I will give them two rounds of fumidil in their feed. I also give a round of fumidil feed to my 'for sale' nucs in the spring time and my II queens.

fumidil is quite expensive. I speculated that I had gone mad the day two small bottles of the stuff arrived here. the first winter I saved 6 hives with a timely application of the stuff. well perhaps not so mad after all.

caticind · October 19, 2010, 01:58:29 PM

I see no reason for hobbyists, especially, to treat if they weren't doing so before.

The new study on CCD was quite clear that nosema was found in samples from all of the hives, including their healthy controls (and the IIV was found in many). CCD symptoms didn't appear except where both nosema and IIV proliferated together. The study isn't conclusive, but it does suggest that nosema alone is not a cause. And nosema is endemic - it's present in low levels even in healthy hives. Nothing new to see here.

winginit · October 19, 2010, 03:12:24 PM

Hadn't planned on treating unless I see signs of nosema, then will go with natural methods first. But of course, I'll be watching what everyone else says here.

tandemrx · October 20, 2010, 12:29:32 AM

and what are these "natural methods' of controlling nosema?

rdy-b · October 20, 2010, 01:00:34 AM

Quote from: tandemrx on October 20, 2010, 12:29:32 AM
and what are these "natural methods' of controlling nosema?

I feed a minimum five rounds of pollen supplement(with EO) -keep the good food going through them
nosema is in the gut-dont give the parasite a foot hold -this is california-but there are periods when my bees are engulfed if a bank of fog for a month or more and dont fly and no forage to speak of-protein and vitelogene reserves are key -RDY-B

bugleman · October 20, 2010, 07:18:38 AM

Quote from: rdy-b on October 20, 2010, 01:00:34 AM
Quote from: tandemrx on October 20, 2010, 12:29:32 AM
and what are these "natural methods' of controlling nosema?
I feed a minimum five rounds of pollen supplement(with EO) -keep the good food going through them
nosema is in the gut-dont give the parasite a foot hold -this is california-but there are periods when my bees are engulfed if a bank of fog for a month or more and dont fly and no forage to speak of-protein and vitelogene reserves are key -RDY-B

My thinking exactly.

But additionally what happens when you clean the bee gut out of all benificial bacteria with antibiotics? Doesn't that leave a clean slate for what every wants to take over?

tecumseh · October 20, 2010, 07:48:55 AM

bugleman writes:
But additionally what happens when you clean the bee gut out of all benificial bacteria with antibiotics?

tecumseh:
a bee has some? what kind and what is your reference?

caticind · October 20, 2010, 11:05:57 AM

http://www.springerlink.com/content/68g10110r6g70467/

Bees use bacteria for digestion and nutrient production in their guts just like humans do, including a few of the same families. Link is to an assay of the various species found in honey bees.

Humans can suffer nasty side effects when necessary antibiotic treatments wipe out gut flora and allow nastier bugs to gain a foothold (c. difficil, etc). Same thing goes for bees.

alfred · October 20, 2010, 11:08:09 AM

I am also interested in what folks are using as 'Natural' methods.

My understanding was that the CCD was found to be caused by a combination of Nosema and the fungus (IIV i guess). I am assuming that the way to fight it is to remove one of the two elements. Because treatment for nosema is redilly available then that seems like the way to go.

I honestly don't know much yet about the new findings and would love it if someone with some smarts could post something on the study or studies and the implications.

It stands to reason that the healthier the bees are. the stronger their immune systems would be. So it seems that it would make sense to treat for those things that you have the ability to treat for.

Of course there is always the issue of over treating and inadvertantly creating resistant strains of disease. Along with that goes the idea of allowing the bees to develop resistance over time using only survivor stock.....

tandemrx · October 20, 2010, 12:36:59 PM

QuoteMy thinking exactly.

But additionally what happens when you clean the bee gut out of all benificial bacteria with antibiotics? Doesn't that leave a clean slate for what every wants to take over?

Difference being that fumagillin is not a broad spectrum antibiotic. It is an antiparasitic drug that does not have activity against typical bacteria found throughout the gastrointestinal tract. Parasites, amoebas, and fungi are not normal colonizers of gastrointestinal tract of animals (some fungi are present, but are not considered beneficial to gastrointestinal health). Parasites are almost routinely non-beneficial for the host.

So, while I am not saying that there are no potential adverse effects of fumagillin treatment, reduction of beneficial colonizers of the GI tract is not likely of consequence with this drug (its always a risk/benefit analysis with any treatment, natural or otherwise, because "natural treatments" also might have detrimental effects as well . . . ask Socrates :))

rdy-b · October 20, 2010, 01:54:42 PM

Quote from: alfred on October 20, 2010, 11:08:09 AM
I am also interested in what folks are using as 'Natural' methods.

My understanding was that the CCD was found to be caused by a combination of Nosema and the fungus (IIV i guess). I am assuming that the way to fight it is to remove one of the two elements. Because treatment for nosema is redilly available then that seems like the way to go.

I honestly don't know much yet about the new findings and would love it if someone with some smarts could post something on the study or studies and the implications.

It stands to reason that the healthier the bees are. the stronger their immune systems would be. So it seems that it would make sense to treat for those things that you have the ability to treat for.

Of course there is always the issue of over treating and inadvertently creating resistant strains of disease. Along with that goes the idea of allowing the bees to develop resistance over time using only survivor stock.....

its my understanding ---nosema C is a signal cell pathogen-(recently reclassified) from the fungal grouping--it in combination with
a newly found virus(new to bees but has been around long time) iridescent virus-is what they are finding as the cause of CCD--
however the fact is they are saying Irodesntt virus is the common denominator--that they could not identify--actually many viruses in combination with nosema C will cause collapse-there was a article recently in ABJ where RANDY OLIVER duplicated collapse with CCD symptoms using IAPV virus-but they say IAPV was not a common denominator in ALL CCD samples and IRODESCENT was-RDY-B

caticind · October 20, 2010, 09:14:57 PM

Rdy-b is getting to the heart of the matter. Nosema and IIV were found together in all of the samples from collapsed or collapsing hives.

But we don't know yet that they are the main cause. That would be like saying that candida and herpes simplex cause AIDS - both may contribute to the misery of the patient, but neither could invade the body if HIV hadn't destroyed the immune system.

Others have pointed out that the study doesn't address long-term lose-dose pesticide exposure, which could have the key effect of reducing the bees' defenses to the point where nosema and IIV can move in and finish the hive off.