Supersedure and swarm cells together?

L Daxon · June 26, 2011, 02:21:28 PM

Why would a colony have multiple capped supersedure and swarm cells at the same time?

If the colony is going to swarm and the old queen leaves with the swarm, why would they need supersedure cells?

I saw this in one of my colonies a couple of days ago. There were two capped supercedure cells next to each other in the middle of one frame and several queen cups with larva in them along the bottom of two other frames.

VolunteerK9 · June 26, 2011, 04:26:05 PM

If you are merely going off of where the cells are placed on the frame, it almost sounds to me like it may have suddenly become queenless and they have built cells from available larvae. Maybe do a check to see if you can find your queen.

antaro · June 27, 2011, 01:08:26 AM

Quote from: VolunteerK9 on June 26, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
If you are merely going off of where the cells are placed on the frame, it almost sounds to me like it may have suddenly become queenless and they have built cells from available larvae. Maybe do a check to see if you can find your queen.

I experienced the same issue a few weeks back and this was my hypothesis as well. I think they go into a panic and just build as many queen cells as they can get away with. But again, just my hypothesis.

indypartridge · June 27, 2011, 07:46:40 AM

Quote from: ldaxon on June 26, 2011, 02:21:28 PM
Why would a colony have multiple capped supersedure and swarm cells at the same time?

They don't. They may be planning to swarm, or planning to supersede, but not both. Supersedure cells are generally in the middle of frames, and swarm cells are generally on the bottom of frames, but these aren't laws written in stone.

Lots of queen cells indicate swarm, just a few indicate supersedure; backfilled broodnest indicates swarm; spotty brood indicates supersedure, etc. Take the location of the queen cells as indications of their intentions, and make a determination based on all the other supporting evidence.

L Daxon · June 27, 2011, 12:49:31 PM

Yeah, they are probably getting ready to swarm.

This is a colony I did a newspaper combine on about 4 weeks ago. It was a weak hive that I added a large swarm to and let the two queens fight it out. (pretty sure there is still a queen as I see eggs, larva, etc.) They probably still have a swarm urge. I should have had another box on earlier but I was out of equipment until last week and by then it looks like by the number of queen cells that it is too late to stop a future swarm. Can't do a split as my husband has limited me to 3 hives and a nuc. I have been pretty lucky about catching swarms out of my own hives but i don't suppose it would do any good to catch'em and recombine. And with what looks like the start of a dearth, I don't need a bunch of extra mouths to feed this time of year anyway.

indypartridge · June 28, 2011, 08:47:26 AM

Quote from: ldaxon on June 27, 2011, 12:49:31 PM
Can't do a split as my husband has limited me to 3 hives and a nuc.

I still see a lot of posts of folks looking for bees. Selling off excess bees can put some money in your pocket...

L Daxon · June 28, 2011, 12:11:39 PM

Yeah, I know I probably should keep some cheap nuc equipment around so I could sell off a couple of swarms a year. Sure would help defray my other expenses, and provide someone with bees when they really need/want them outside of the "package" season.

qa33010 · July 01, 2011, 02:09:23 AM

Sounds like emergency cells to me as well. I have had these when I accidentally hurt or killed a queen during an inspection. They were where I didn't think they would be and that was it. Now I handle every frame as if the queen is on it.

FRAMEshift · July 01, 2011, 08:11:43 AM

Quote from: indypartridge on June 27, 2011, 07:46:40 AM

They don't. They may be planning to swarm, or planning to supersede, but not both. Supersedure cells are generally in the middle of frames, and swarm cells are generally on the bottom of frames, but these aren't laws written in stone.

Lots of queen cells indicate swarm, just a few indicate supersedure; backfilled broodnest indicates swarm; spotty brood indicates supersedure, etc. Take the location of the queen cells as indications of their intentions, and make a determination based on all the other supporting evidence.

Exactly right on all counts.

sc-bee · July 01, 2011, 03:23:55 PM

Also swarm cells are usually multiple in all phases of development, as in just started, drawn completely out, uncapped and capped.
But they often don't follow the rules. I have not found the location of cell theory to hold much water in my area. Condition of the hive at the time seems to indicated more for me.