Moving to small cell: If I use 5.1mm foundation...

[Adam Foster Collins]

...in an attempt to move toward smaller/natural cell sizes, then do I have to remove those frames with 5.1 at a later date? Or is 5.1mm already within the "small cell" range enough that those combs can stay in the hives without having a negative effect?

I have about 75 sheets of 5.1mm foundation, and I'm starting langs. I'm thinking of using that foundation to get them started, and once that's all drawn, working in foundationless frames between drawn combs in hopes that they will draw straight combs between them.

Thoughts?

Adam

[FRAMEshift]

I would say that 5.1 is not in the range of small cell, but it does overlap with the range of natural cell.  So what are you trying to accomplish?  Bees don't have to have all 4.9mm cells in order to survive.  But I would not want to have all 5.1 either.   I know you feel that it is a waste to throw away 75 sheets of foundation.  But your bees are quite able to build their own comb with no foundation at all. And the wax will be cleaner and the cell size will be exactly what the bees want.   So why not just start adding foundationless frames and removing the existing 5.1 foundation as quickly as it empties?  

If you migrate the 5.1 to the outsides of the box and then up to the honey section, the bees will use it for honey stores, so it won't be a total waste.  But I would not add more 5.1 foundation.  That's how I see it.

[Michael Bush]

I wouldn't bother with the 5.1mm.  I've seen a lot of package bees draw 4.7mm on their own with no foundation and some will draw 4.9mm foundation fine.  Some will not.  But why wast a change to get them to 4.9mm?  If you use the 5.1mm then I would work it to the outside and then out of the hive as you replace the core with 4.9mm.

[Jim134]

So what are you trying to accomplish  :? And how many hives do you plan on havering  :?
Or can you put the 5.1mm foundation in the honey supers  :? and I got about 50  :? more  :?

 

       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)    

[Adam Foster Collins]

• These are new hives. May be as many as 6 hives.
• They will be populated with nucs - on larger cells, and some could be from swarms.
• 8 frame deeps for brood.
• Narrow frames.
• I have a fair pile of foundation (100 sheets medium and 175 deep) but only 75 or so is 5.1mm - the rest is larger.
• My goal is to have natural cell sizes in the brood nest
• I see through others that foundationless frames tend to leave space along the sides and bottoms of the frames, and can take a long while to fill in. I have also heard of people having problems getting straight comb. So I just figured it might be good to use the 5.1 just to get some full-frame, straight comb drawn, and then insert empty frames between them after that.

[FRAMEshift]

• My goal is to have natural cell sizes in the brood nest
• I see through others that foundationless frames tend to leave space along the sides and bottoms of the frames, and can take a long while to fill in. I have also heard of people having problems getting straight comb. So I just figured it might be good to use the 5.1 just to get some full-frame, straight comb drawn, and then insert empty frames between them after that.

You can do it that way and it will probably work.  But you will not really be moving to natural cell as fast as you could.  If you just use foundationless, you might get some wonky comb but if you keep an eye on it, you can prevent it from getting out of hand.  It's amazing how long it takes to get rid of foundation once you (and the bees) make the investment of drawing them out.  Better to take the hit in the beginning and never use the foundation.

If you have mites where you are, then I would want to go directly to foundationless,  or if you are concerned about wonky comb... use 4.9 foundation.  If you don't have mites, then using the 5.1 as a temporary solution may be ok.  But if you take that route I would use as little foundation as possible.

OR... you could try both.  Use only foundationless frames for some of the hives and use 5.1 foundation in others.  See which works best.

[Jim134]

• • My goal is to have natural cell sizes in the brood nest
• I see through others that foundationless frames tend to leave space along the sides and bottoms of the frames, and can take a long while to fill in. I have also heard of people having problems getting straight comb. So I just figured it might be good to use the 5.1 just to get some full-frame, straight comb drawn, and then insert empty frames between them after that.

From what I have read the wire must be 100% imbedded or the bees will not draw comb properly.

Not true,  the bee will draw comb just fine around the wire.  In fact, I use and recommend wiring foundationless frames as well.

I wire the frames as tightly as I can by hand,  and then use one of these to tighten up the wire.

You want the wire tight enough so you get a nice high ping out of it.  Like plucking a guitar.  

Hope this helps.

Rob....

 
  This may help you.


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Adam Foster Collins]

Okay, but if large cell bees draw large cell comb, isn't using 5.1 likely to regress them faster than just letting them do their thing? Wouldn't you still have to cull the early combs anyway? I mean, if the large cell bees are drawing large comb, natural or not, it's going to be big. That means the first season combs are going to be on the big side. So why is it more beneficial to go straight to foundationless?

My thinking was that the 5.1 foundation would:

• regress a step, or get them moving quickly toward smaller cells
• help keep combs straight
• help encourage the bees to draw full frames, right to the edges, maximizing comb area per frame and strength of comb.

If I go foundationless, I still have larger cell comb (albeit more varied), and I still have to cull it later to get them fully regressed.

Correct?

Adam

[FRAMEshift]

Okay, but if large cell bees draw large cell comb, isn't using 5.1 likely to regress them faster than just letting them do their thing?

Big bees (raised on 5.4 mm comb) will draw roughly 5.1 cells on foundationless frames.  So using the 5.1 foundation is not better or worse than what the package bees can do on their own with no foundation.  So in that sense you are correct.

But the next generation bees that are raised in those 5.1 mm cells (whether in foundationless or 5.1 mm foundation) will  be able to draw cells smaller than 5.1 mm if they are on foundationless frames.  So if you put foundation in the hive, that first round of brood emerging from their 5.1 mm cells (which will happen 3-4 weeks after you add the bees) will not be able to draw comb that is smaller than 5.1 because you have them on 5.1 foundation.  Does that make sense?

As long as you remove those 5.1 mm frames as soon as you can, it doesn't really matter one way or the other.  If you really want quick regression, you should use the 4.95 mm Mann Lake pf 100 (or 120 mediums)  because that is just about the smallest size cell that big package bees are able to draw.

The truth is, you are going to be fine either way.  Just get the foundation out as soon as you can.

[Adam Foster Collins]

Okay - so from what you're saying FRAMEshift - No matter what the first step is -foundationless or on 5.1 - they're going to draw 5.1(ish) that first time around.

And that means that whichever way I go, I have to remove that first set of combs and replace with either small cell foundation, or foundationless.

So it looks like this:

• 5.4 bees in a nuc on 5.4 combs.
• Insert into new hive with 5.1mm foundation or foundationless frames.
• They build 5.1(ish) cells which are smaller than 5.4, but not small enough to really combat varroa (assuming that is a potential result)
• Once a generation of bees emerges from 5.1mm cells, they can go smaller, and will do so if they are given empty frames or foundation with 4.9.
• If we want them to become truly "small cell bees", we have to get the origninal 5.4 frames out of there, and get the first step of 5.1mm out of there - foundationless or not.

Correct?

Adam

[FRAMEshift]

And that means that whichever way I go, I have to remove that first set of combs and replace with either small cell foundation, or foundationless.

I think you understand all the issues perfectly.  I would just ask why you would use 5.1 mm foundation if you are planning on spending money on 4.95 foundation anyway?  If that's the plan, I would toss the 5.1 and just use Mann Lake pf100s from the beginning. The pf100s will not ever have to be removed.  That saves a lot of wasted wax.  And remember that you don't need all that many small cell frames.  You just need to have enough so that you can contain all the new bees until the last of the big bees have died or become foragers (6-8 weeks after you get the last of the 5.4 comb out of the hive). 

[Adam Foster Collins]

And that means that whichever way I go, I have to remove that first set of combs and replace with either small cell foundation, or foundationless.

I think you understand all the issues perfectly.  I would just ask why you would use 5.1 mm foundation if you are planning on spending money on 4.95 foundation anyway?  ..

I'm not planning to use 4.95 I don't have any and don't plan to buy any. I'm just trying to figure out a good way to use the 5.1 that I have. I just have it, and am trying to figure if there's a productive way to use it. I don't plan on spending any more money on foundation. I just got a pile of it in a deal with a bunch of gear. I also have a couple hundred sheets of 5.4, but I am just talking about using the 5.1

Adam

[FRAMEshift]

Ok, I understand.  Let us know how it turns out.

[Adam Foster Collins]

I have top bar hives as well, and I just measured some of the comb I took out of that. Those hives where started from large cell (or regular cell) nucs, and the comb I'm measuring is foundationless, natural comb that they built last year. It's smallest cells measure 5.2mm pretty uniformly. So If I just put empty frames in, then I'm getting 5.2 cells and larger in that first generation of new comb.

So if I really want them to get back to small or truly "natural" cell sizes, then I have to cull out that first generation anyway - unless I buy small cell foundation - but even then, they're not always going to draw that small enough the first time around.

So I don't really see any way around removing a generation of comb. And if that's the case, why not use the 5.1mm I have, then pull that as I replace with foundationless...

Adam

[JackM]

How can you say that foundationless comb is not natural cell size?  Am I on the wrong planet?  I understand wanting small cell, but still the bees made their own in the size they want.  I am a rookie, so advise if I am out of line here.

[oblib]

How can you say that foundationless comb is not natural cell size?  Am I on the wrong planet?  I understand wanting small cell, but still the bees made their own in the size they want.  I am a rookie, so advise if I am out of line here.

The theory is that large bees have trouble building the natural size. So to get to it you have to let smaller bees hatch out of the midsized comb then pull it and allow them to build even smaller. Then you end up in the 4.9 range. Even if you pull the 4.9 comb they will continue to build in that range thus the 4.9 is the "natural" size for bees to use.

[Adam Foster Collins]

Because when you first get bees who were raised on large cell -- they are not natural size. So when they start building natural comb, the size of their bodies affects the comb they build. As they die, and new bees are born on the comb they built, which is smaller - so are they - but still not regressed to as small as they would be if you keep letting them build new comb.

That's the trick of small or natural cell I think. I have top bar hives, but I've never really culled the first generation of comb, so for a while, I was under the impression my bees were on natural cell - but until I get more of that first generation comb out, they will not actually get cells down to as small as they could be, and I will not be able to truly test the natural sized cells against varroa.

Adam

[Michael Bush]

>How can you say that foundationless comb is not natural cell size?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression

[FRAMEshift]

Adam, since you are so good at understanding the fine points here, let me add one more.  One advantage of the foundationless over foundation is that it responds faster to changes in the bees' size.  Frames are not drawn out all at once.  Each frame may be drawn in successive waves by different (younger) bees.  As each batch of new bees emerges, it is able to build somewhat smaller cells.  If there are foundation frames still in the hive, that is the size they will draw on those frames.  But on foundationless frames, even if there are some 5.1 cells already drawn on that frame, the new cells drawn on those frames can be smaller.  

This has to do with just how austere you have to be in removing comb.   It's ok to have some cells that are larger than 4.9 mm. The bees like a range of sizes... drone comb, honey comb, and some brood comb larger than 5.1.  The whole point of foundationless is that it lets the bees choose the size they want rather than having one size (whether 5.4 or 5.1 or 4.9) forced on them.  This may seem to be a small point, but in my experience it is very difficult to remove drawn comb.  It is a valuable resource and removing it is costly.  

Also remember that even if a frame has some larger cells on it, the bees don't have to use those cells,  They can (and do) use different size cells at different times of the year.  If they want to use the smaller cells on a frame, they will do that and ignore the larger cells.  

[Adam Foster Collins]

FRAMEshift

Understood. All of what you're saying makes sense. Removing comb is indeed a pain, and from all angles - foundation or not - it appears that I'll have to remove some of it.

Thanks for the detailed input, as this is helping me to more fully understand all of this, and, no doubt, the conversation is helping others as well.

Cheers,

Adam