Semi - Foundationless

Riggs · May 11, 2012, 01:21:15 PM

A couple of weeks ago I was getting a few supers ready when I realized that I didn't have enough wired foundation, so...I cut what I had into strips and tried that. It worked great, the bees filled out every frame completely, starting with the strips I had put in. The one in the picture is actually one of the first I tried. By the time I was done, I was only getting one wire per strip. Just thought I'd share

yockey5 · May 11, 2012, 02:16:50 PM

Never seen it done vertically. Wow, great to know.

AllenF · May 11, 2012, 05:59:11 PM

That is the first vertical starter strip I have seen. Looks good.

Joe D · May 11, 2012, 07:36:57 PM

Looks good, may try that.

Thanks Riggs

Joe

Michael Bush · May 12, 2012, 02:53:23 AM

You don't need one vertical strip in the middle. It is irrelevant. But you DO need a horizontal strip that runs the length of the top bar either wood or wax will work.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

duck · May 12, 2012, 10:38:48 AM

sounds like it worked for him though. show us some pics of the drawn comb.

Kathyp · May 12, 2012, 01:09:02 PM

i can see how that would work with wax foundation. the bees would start comb on that and build out as they do with regular foundationless. very often i find that they have started and long section going down, in the middle (not attached), then they build out and down from there. one advantage to your way...if it works consistently, is that you'd have some bottome attachment right away and it would make the new comb more stable.

more pictures please! and an evaluation over time. how often does this work, etc.

if it's a one off, it's no good :-D

Riggs · May 12, 2012, 04:03:10 PM

It's worked on 3 supers so far, will try to get a few pics next time I'm in. One thing I didn't mention is I kept all of the strips centered in the frame to try to maintain the proper spacing. They built out on what foundation was there, then went off of each end. I just thought I might save a buck or two.

Finski · May 12, 2012, 05:19:33 PM

.
You will spoil your frames. You surely will find foundation somewhere.
There are beekeepers round there where you may pay or lown or steal....

Michael Bush · May 13, 2012, 01:14:21 AM

>sounds like it worked for him though.

One can often get lucky. Some bees just build straight combs without much encouraging. Most bees with that setup will bend the comb at the ends and make it curved sometimes to the point of being on the next frame. To be reliable a guide needs to run the length of the top bar and even then SOMETIMES they will still try to curve it But the better the "hint" the better they will follow it.

BlueBee · May 13, 2012, 01:42:18 AM

Riggs · May 13, 2012, 07:49:56 AM

Bluebee, that's a great pic, but what are we looking at?
Don't I see starter strips at the top?

Finski, I respectfully ask how I am spoiling my frames?

diggity · May 14, 2012, 03:59:14 PM

Riggs, did you have any problems with them tangling comb together? I've been doing something similar for a few years now with Pierco frames. I know a lot of people don't like plastic frames and I can see why... but they are an excellent choice for going semi-foundationless. You simply cut out the whole center with a jig saw or hand saw, leaving roughly a 1-inch strip all around the perimeter. They will easily fill the entire thing with beautiful comb reaching from edge to edge, top to bottom. I don't know how they figure out the mathematics involved in lining everything up so that it all fits together perfectly, but they do.

Initially I had some significant problems with them building comb crosswise and making a mess out of things. (By "mess" I mean the structures they create are actually quite beautiful and would make Salvador Dali proud, but they sure made it hard to do an inspection without breaking something). Then I realized that alternating new frames with existing (straight) frames solved that problem (at least most of the time).

I'm not sure why I'm doing the semi-foundationless thing. Somehow it just feels right. Or maybe I have a deep seated need to be different. The bees seem to like making comb from scratch more than they like drawing out foundation. I don't have any empirical evidence beyond that I'm afraid.

Riggs · May 14, 2012, 04:28:17 PM

Quote from: diggity on May 14, 2012, 03:59:14 PM
Riggs, did you have any problems with them tangling comb together? I've been doing something similar for a few years now with Pierco frames. I know a lot of people don't like plastic frames and I can see why... but they are an excellent choice for going semi-foundationless. You simply cut out the whole center with a jig saw or hand saw, leaving roughly a 1-inch strip all around the perimeter. They will easily fill the entire thing with beautiful comb reaching from edge to edge, top to bottom. I don't know how they figure out the mathematics involved in lining everything up so that it all fits together perfectly, but they do.

Initially I had some significant problems with them building comb crosswise and making a mess out of things. (By "mess" I mean the structures they create are actually quite beautiful and would make Salvador Dali proud, but they sure made it hard to do an inspection without breaking something). Then I realized that alternating new frames with existing (straight) frames solved that problem (at least most of the time).

I'm not sure why I'm doing the semi-foundationless thing. Somehow it just feels right. Or maybe I have a deep seated need to be different. The bees seem to like making comb from scratch more than they like drawing out foundation. I don't have any empirical evidence beyond that I'm afraid.

I haven't had any problems with it, now the next time I'm in it may be a complete mess. I usually go all foundationless, but I wanted foundation in the brood frames, and just didn't have enough. I kept the strips centered, and so far it seems to be working very well.
I think I just enjoy the "experimentation" as much as anything.
As for cutting the Pierco frames, that is too expensive for me to experiment with. :-D

BlueBee · May 15, 2012, 01:18:38 AM

Quote from: diggity on May 14, 2012, 03:59:14 PM
Or maybe I have a deep seated need to be different.

The true defination of a bee keeper :)

It's really cool to see what people are doing and how it is working.

diggity · May 15, 2012, 12:45:41 PM

Just curious Riggs, why did you want foundation in the brood frames? My thought is to switch to all foundationless (or semi-foundationless) in the brood chambers in the hopes that letting the bees control the size and shape of their cells is somehow good for overall hive health. To me, the honey supers are a different story. No question that foundation is easier to put through the extractor. If you crush and strain that's a different story of course. I'm still on the fence about what to do in the honey supers. I don't have an extractor, but sometimes I can borrow one from my father. The rest of the time I crush and strain. Consequently, I have some honey frames with foundation and some without.

Riggs · May 15, 2012, 01:05:38 PM

Let me rephrase that, I wanted foundationless in the honey supers to crush & strain, I wanted to use up my wired foundation in the brood chambers, and truthfully I wanted to see if doing it like this would work.

diggity · May 15, 2012, 03:12:46 PM

Ahhh, OK, gotcha. :)

sterling · May 16, 2012, 12:45:16 PM

Quote from: diggity on May 15, 2012, 12:45:41 PM
Just curious Riggs, why did you want foundation in the brood frames? My thought is to switch to all foundationless (or semi-foundationless) in the brood chambers in the hopes that letting the bees control the size and shape of their cells is somehow good for overall hive health. To me, the honey supers are a different story. No question that foundation is easier to put through the extractor. If you crush and strain that's a different story of course. I'm still on the fence about what to do in the honey supers. I don't have an extractor, but sometimes I can borrow one from my father. The rest of the time I crush and strain. Consequently, I have some honey frames with foundation and some without.

You can extract foundationless frames in an extractor. I extracted 12 yesterday. To me the trick is to not spin real fast but spin longer. Also they shouldn't be be real fresh comb.