Expanding new hives while switching to foundationless

[Playapixie]

Two new hives and a newbie in Seattle has questions on expanding my growing hives while going to foundationless.

I spent several hours watching Michael Bush's talks on foundationless beekeeping while building more boxes and frames yesterday and it's about time to expand.

Currently I have 2 hives each with two 8-frame mediums. Top boxes have 6 frames each and a top feeder and are almost fully drawn out and full of brood and resources.  Bottom boxes have 8 frames each and are full in the middle and the bees are drawing out the last few frames on the edges now.

These hives were started with packaged bees 20 days ago (if I'd known then what I know today I'd have started with local nucs, but too late...)

All frames so far have black plastic rite cell foundation.

I want to add a third western and use foundationless frames from here forward.   

In what order do I arrange the new frames and boxes? I understand the bees draw straighter if there are already-drawn frames interspersed, but it seems like splitting the brood to do that would chill them. We're still a couple months away from reliably warm weather here in Seattle.

Also, how do I determine when they have enough stores to remove the feeders?

Thanks so much!

[Dallasbeek]

What is an 8-frame western?

If you're feeding and the weather in Seattle is two months away from being reliably warm, are they storing syrup, or do you have nectar and pollen coming into the hive?

Are you saying you have 6 frames in each 8-frame box?

I should think you're going to want to start going foundationless in a box intended for honey.  Get them going there and worry later about converting the brood boxes to foundationless if that's what you ultimately decide to do, but you're correct that you don't want to checkerboard the brood at this point, if ever.  Get them to build comb on foundationless frames or top bars by alternating frames of foundation and foundationless.  This will get them to build straight comb.  Once they've built the comb, you can remove the frames with foundation (maybe next year, actually) and get them to build comb between foundationless comb.  Don't count on harvesting any honey this year.  Get them through next winter.  That being said, whatever they are storing away, whether nectar or syrup, they'll use next winter.  Seek advice next spring on when you should stop feeding.

Iddee, OldMech or Michael Bush or someone else  may join in and contradict me on the above, which is fine.  I am in my second year of trying to keep bees and some of the people on this forum have been tending bees 30 or 40 years.  I'll gladly yield the floor to any of them and if they contradict me, then you and I will both have learned something.

Good luck with the bees and welcome to the forum.  But I've never heard of a western, so please answer that for me.

[rookie2531]

I started last summer with FL honey supers and was pleased with the outcome. Some were fat, but so was some of the foundation. I think I made a little mistake, when I started moving those frames from hive to hive, or even within the same box. I was helping weaker ones and what not. Or even not being very attentive when inspecting and putting them back in (flipping or even in a different position, good example.. End frame had more space so it was bubbled out and then ended in the middle) but overall pleased. Now, this year I have been placing FL deeps for brood and it seems that those are even better. Probably because the foundation brood frames are more straight than the supers were. But I am planning on using something like guitar string and cutting the fat frames thin and straight when the time is right.

[richter1978]

I like to bring a straight comb up to the new box.  If the bees are really going a drawn comb works fine, if they're moving a little slower its nice if the comb is "wet".  If it's warm enough and the bees are thick enough, a brood comb or two is good.  In my limited experience (3 yrs), I've found that the straightest combs are drawn near the center of the brood nest, so in my all medium hives I'll move an outside honey frame up and add an empty to the middle of the box. Like rookie, I deal with a lot of bulges and ears on my frames. A knife and hive tool are used to cut off irregularities, it can be frustrating for sure and not all of mine are perfectly square.

[OldMech]

I'll not contradict you Dallasbeek.  Putting foundation-less between drawn frames works very well.

   The difference between foundation and no foundation, is that the bees and queen will see foundation as a barrier if it is placed in the brood chamber. Putting an EMPTY frame in the brood chamber does not cause the same problem.. there is no wall, so all they see is a space that needs filled with comb..
   However...   do not add a lot of frames in the brood area..  It does create a gap they have to cross..  I will add one frame into the brood area, and put a frame to either side of the brood in a ten frame medium. If using 8 frame boxes you might want to only add a couple frames at a time. I have no experience with 8 frame equipment so someone else will have to chime in..
  The next problem to watch for.. any time you add a frame.. be it with foundation or foundation-less they will likely fatten the opposing frame, so it will have to be trimmed back.
 

[JackM]

I saw where you lived and just skipped everyone elses responses since I know our country better, KathyP is even more knowledgable than I.

I think I would get rid of the feeders, we have had a flow going for awhile and the blackberries are just coming on.  This is the flow.  Though not yet ready, watch closely for those other frames to fill fast.  By removing the feeders they will get more frames to store.  I may be a week or two ahead of you being I am so much further South, but still the same climate.

I like to put empty frames between frames of honey, not brood, so that usually puts them to the outer portions of your hive.  I have nothing but foundationless.  When they need the comb they will make it.  When that is filled then add another box.