Putting on my honey supers today.

bwallace23350 · August 25, 2016, 11:04:38 AM

I am going to run an experiment. I am going to use a queen excluder on one and not on the other and see how it goes.

Michael Bush · August 25, 2016, 11:21:05 AM

The problem is, that the difference between one colony and another colony is greater than the difference of most of these kinds of experiments so you will do worse than learn nothing, you will be mislead by shear coincidence. Now if you put an excluder on 20 hives and didn't put one on 20 hives and measured carefully, you could come to some pretty useful conclusions. But the other problem is the results will vary by circumstances such as a heavy fast flow, or a long slow flow. Also it varies by having drawn comb above the exlcuder or bare foundation or foundationless. And, to top it off it varies in combination of these, i.e. a hive with drawn comb in any flow will be different than foundation but the differences will be more extreme in a slow flow than a really fast heavy flow. Not that I want to discourage you from experimenting. Just don't put too much stock in one experiment.

bwallace23350 · August 25, 2016, 11:42:38 AM

Thanks for the advice. What would you tell me to do in general? I feel that my bees are already in the mist of a flow and it is only going to get stronger

Michael Bush · August 25, 2016, 12:11:50 PM

Feel free to experiment. I just did a lot of experimenting with only a couple of hives, came to a lot of erroneous conclusions and it took me years to correct them. :) What I would do is put the excluders in the garage and save them for a time I can't find a queen or I actually need to confine her.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm#excluders

From the Australasian Bee Manual:

"Queen Excluders... are very useful in queen rearing, and in uniting colonies; but for the purpose they are generally used, viz., for confining the queen to the lower hive through the honey season, I have no hesitation in condemning them. As I have gone into this question fully on a previous occasion, I will quote my remarks:--

"The most important point to observe during the honey season in working to secure a maximum crop of honey is to keep down swarming, and the main factors to this end, as I have previously stated, are ample ventilation of the hives, and adequate working-room for the bees. When either or both these conditions are absent, swarming is bound to take place. The free ventilation of a hive containing a strong colony is not so easily secured in the height of the honey season, even under the best conditions, that we can afford to take liberties with it; and when the ventilating--space between the lower and upper boxes is more than half cut off by a queen-excluder, the interior becomes almost unbearable on hot days. The results under such circumstances are that a very large force of bees that should be out working are employed fanning-, both inside and out, and often a considerable part of the colony will be hanging outside the hive in enforced idleness until it is ready to swarm.

"Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end--swarming--is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space. This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season. A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks.

"For my part I care not where the queen lays--the more bees the more honey. If she lays in some of the super combs it can be readily rectified now and again by putting the brood below, and side combs of honey from the lower box above; some of the emerging brood also may be placed at the side of the upper box to give plenty of room below. I have seen excluders on in the latter part of the season, the queens idle for want of room, and very little brood in the hives, just at a time when it is of very great importance that there should be plenty of young bees emerging."--Isaac Hopkins, The Australasian Bee Manual

bwallace23350 · August 25, 2016, 12:28:51 PM

Thanks. I only put the honey super on one of my hives as the other is smaller and not quite ready yet for another box.

Lancej · August 26, 2016, 10:09:05 AM

I use qe as i don't like the taste of brood in my honey.

BeeMaster2 · August 26, 2016, 12:33:03 PM

There is an easy answer to that, don't take combs that have brood in them. If you are using an extractor, the capped brood stays in the comb if you do not decap it.
Jim

Duane · August 26, 2016, 03:09:01 PM

I've wondered what the purpose of queen excluders are. Lot's of people seem to worry about brood up higher, but why is that a problem? Just don't use those frames. Or if it's a little bit, cut it out. And if you have the same size equipment, move those frames down. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the general concept of why confine the queen when you have moveable frames.

Lancej · August 26, 2016, 09:10:59 PM

Hi Jim, What I should have said is that I find that I can taste the brood in comb that has been back filled. I don't extract comb with brood still in it. I once crushed and strained some dark comb, couldn't eat it, the brood flavour was too strong. Lance

BeeMaster2 · August 27, 2016, 12:01:43 AM

There are a lot of things that can cause honey to taste bad. I do not think having had brood is the problem. I have extracted honey from some pretty dark comb and it tasted great. The bees make sure the comb is clean and anything that was left in the cell is either removed or sealed in propolis. Taste is probably more from the type of nectar the bees collected.
Around here in certain areas, the spring and summer honey is great but the late summer is a little off taste.
Jim

Michael Bush · August 29, 2016, 05:28:49 PM

I run all the same size boxes. When someone asks what I do when the queen lays in the supers, I say that's impossible. If the queen lays in it, it's not a super...

PhilK · September 02, 2016, 12:45:03 AM

Quote from: Duane on August 26, 2016, 03:09:01 PM
I've wondered what the purpose of queen excluders are. Lot's of people seem to worry about brood up higher, but why is that a problem? Just don't use those frames. Or if it's a little bit, cut it out. And if you have the same size equipment, move those frames down. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the general concept of why confine the queen when you have moveable frames.

But if I could put a QX on and avoid having to search for brood through all my frames, isn't that much easier?
When it comes time for me to harvest honey I chuck a clearer board on and remove the whole super. I don't need to sort through every frame to check if it has brood on it and move it down into the brood box if it does.. what a pain!
I find the QX conversation so interesting, and it will never come to a consensus! Just do what works for you is the best way

Michael Bush · September 02, 2016, 04:56:01 PM

>But if I could put a QX on and avoid having to search for brood through all my frames, isn't that much easier?

Since you'll have empty supers if you don't have drawn comb, yes, much easier.

>When it comes time for me to harvest honey I chuck a clearer board on and remove the whole super. I don't need to sort through every frame to check if it has brood on it and move it down into the brood box if it does.. what a pain!

Generally I pull the boxes when it's turned cold and no bees are in them. There is also no brood in them.

PhilK · September 04, 2016, 09:32:06 PM

A great example of doing whatever works for you MB!
In my climate the bees have no problem drawing frames above the QX, and I don't only pull honey in the cold, so my honey boxes would end up with brood through them