Need help diagnosing

Bob Wilson · July 05, 2020, 11:00:38 PM

I have a new beek friend with a hive problem, but there are several conflicting issues.

TWO DAYS AGO: THE HIVE WAS QUEENRIGHT AND SEEMED NORMAL.
1. The single deep hive had about 70% comb. Two plastic foundation frames untouched, and several half frames of foundationless not fully drawn.
2. Several frames felt heavy to him. I assume that meant nectar.
3. He spilled mineral oil from a beetle trap down one side of one frame.
YESTERDAY
4. He began seeing the bees cleaning out a lot of larva, younger and older.
TODAY
5. The hive absconded. they are balled in a tree nearby.
6. Almost all the bees left, except for a few bees on one frame.
7. I came over later and found many bees were returning, but flying and clustering all around the hive as if looking for an entrance.
8. There are now two full frames of bees in the single deep box.
9. All the comb is empty. No nectar, no honey, no brood or eggs. no pollen.
10. Hive beetles are ALL through the hive and over the comb.
11. The comb looks ragged as if from robbing
12. I saw no slime or presence of SHB larva.
13. The hive smells fine. No disease I could see.
14. There are no queencells.

So...
If they absconded because of the SHB, why dump all the larva?
If they were robbed, why dump all the larva?
If they dumped the larva because of the oil spill, why kill ALL the larva?
Where did the honey and nectar go?
Could three things be happening... The larva removed because of varroa, no resources because of robbing, and absconding because of SHB? That seems coincidental.

Ben Framed · July 05, 2020, 11:31:06 PM

> TWO DAYS AGO: THE HIVE WAS QUEENRIGHT AND SEEMED NORMAL.

Good

> He spilled mineral oil from a beetle trap down one side of one frame.
YESTERDAY

Not good.

Was this a trap that he was attempting to install, or a trap that had already been installed? If previously installed, was he simply attempting cleaning the trap out then the disaster occured? If he was simply cleaning it out, the beetles in the hive more than likely, would have already been under control. If that is the case, the bees should not have absconded because of SHB. But there again there is much we do not know. Starting with the just mentioned questions. As you probably already know, a weak hive or abandoned hive can become infested overnight by SHB. Especially if the bees living there were gone. I suspect this, in this case without knowing more about this case.

> The hive absconded. they are balled in a tree nearby.

Can they be retrieved?

>There are now two full frames of bees in the single deep box.

Robbers? Since there are now again, two frames of bees, did you look for a queen?

> All the comb is empty. No nectar, no honey, no brood or eggs. no pollen.

Tough break alright. Sorry about your friends misfortune Bob.

.

Acebird · July 06, 2020, 08:28:57 AM

I think hive in distress. Mineral oil just added to it.

Hops Brewster · July 06, 2020, 11:20:13 AM

Agree w/ Ace.
This hive was probably in trouble before the oil spill. SHB is trouble for weak hives. Was this oil spilled on a brood frame? If so, could explain dumping larvae. or..
What did the larvae look like? Plump and white or thin and sickly, dried out or discolored?
Hive absconded because nothing was right inside. Brood was destroyed or sick, SHB was rampant. What was mite count? Heavy mite load means possible virus infection and resulting sick larvae.
Returning bees were on brood or honey/pollen frames? Possibly saw robbing bees, not returning absconded colony.

A hive weakened by mites attacked by SHB. Defenseless colony caused absconding, stores got robbed.

Ben Framed · July 06, 2020, 11:37:18 AM

Quote from: Hops Brewster on July 06, 2020, 11:20:13 AM
Agree w/ Ace.
This hive was probably in trouble before the oil spill. SHB is trouble for weak hives. Was this oil spilled on a brood frame? If so, could explain dumping larvae. or..
What did the larvae look like? Plump and white or thin and sickly, dried out or discolored?
Hive absconded because nothing was right inside. Brood was destroyed or sick, SHB was rampant. What was mite count? Heavy mite load means possible virus infection and resulting sick larvae.
Returning bees were on brood or honey/pollen frames? Possibly saw robbing bees, not returning absconded colony.

A hive weakened by mites attacked by SHB. Defenseless colony caused absconding, stores got robbed.

Very possible hops as I said from the beginning.
> But there again there is much we do not know. Starting with the just mentioned questions <

You and Ace are very possibly, and most probably right. The only thing we have to go on is the very limited information akin to our questions. And the first thing he said in bold letters was,

> TWO DAYS AGO: THE HIVE WAS QUEENRIGHT AND SEEMED NORMAL.<

It is hard to Diagnose without answers. We will know more then.

.

Acebird · July 06, 2020, 06:29:50 PM

Quote from: Ben Framed on July 06, 2020, 11:37:18 AM

> TWO DAYS AGO: THE HIVE WAS QUEENRIGHT AND SEEMED NORMAL.<

If you don't know what to look for you will probably describe a hive in this fashion. There is one thing I am pretty confident about, a hive doesn't go sour in two days. Trouble may not be noticed because bees are very adaptable. Everything has its breaking point.

Oh I forgot to mention:

QuoteIt is hard to Diagnose without answers.

It is hard to diagnose after the fact. All you can do is guess at what usually happens. There are many tell tail signs but nothing is conclusive. What was the first problem that cannon balled into the lost of a hive?

Ben Framed · July 06, 2020, 06:48:31 PM

Quote from: Acebird on July 06, 2020, 06:29:50 PM
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 06, 2020, 11:37:18 AM

> TWO DAYS AGO: THE HIVE WAS QUEENRIGHT AND SEEMED NORMAL.<

If you don't know what to look for you will probably describe a hive in this fashion. There is one thing I am pretty confident about, a hive doesn't go sour in two days. Trouble may not be noticed because bees are very adaptable. Everything has its breaking point.

Oh I forgot to mention:
QuoteIt is hard to Diagnose without answers.
It is hard to diagnose after the fact. All you can do is guess at what usually happens. There are many tell tail signs but nothing is conclusive. What was the first problem that cannon balled into the lost of a hive?

In everyday life of bees I agree with you 100 percent. But this was not everyday life situation of a beehive.

Quoting Bob
''He spilled mineral oil from a beetle trap down one side of one frame. YESTERDAY''

This changes everything. Guessing if it was this or that is only a guess, if Bob will answer the questions that Hops and I ask, we might be able to at least narrow it down. No one has mentioned the possibility that the queen might have been one of the bees drenched in oil. This was a tragic happening as far as Bobs' friend is concerned for these bees. Accidents happen.

Let me add, bees and oil do not mix. Bees are steady moving throughout their hive. Tracing through, even wiped up oil, spots could most certainly be a reason for them to leave.

.

Acebird · July 07, 2020, 08:52:09 AM

One side of one frame is a pretty minor spill. He could have just removed that frame which I would have. I contend that if the hive was healthy it wouldn't have mattered. Bees have survived hundreds of my mistakes and they still do.

Bob Wilson · July 07, 2020, 09:35:56 AM

Thanks for the input beeks. Unfortunately I don't have any more information on my friend's hive.
I know there had to be some other things going on before yhey left, and I mostly blame the SHB. It was just such a confusing array of symptoms: a queen there three days ago and now a complete lack of brood, the resource depletion, and the beetles. If i find out any other info, I will pass it on.
Thanks.

Beeboy01 · July 07, 2020, 11:13:58 AM

I'll give a guess that the mite load was high in the hive which had weakened it. The mineral oil spill just pushed the hive over it's edge, the SHB's took advantage and moved in which caused the bees to abscond. Probably there was some robbing going on during the collapse which increase the stress and also helped to chased the bees out. Pretty much a standard hive collapse brought on by a heavy mite load. Any experienced bee keeper has seen it happen to either his or a friend's hive. The SHB's are a secondary invader of the hive, mites are the primary cause of most hive deaths. When did he last treat for mites?
Another possibility would be an ant attack but they usually leave massive amounts of dead bees and ants in the hive when done.