What would you do about this?

[amymcg]

All, I have four hives now, up from my one from last year.  Three of these were purchased nucs, one was a package.  My question is about the package.

I received the package the second week of May. They were installed on foundation and fed.  They have been very very slow to get started.  Here two months later, they barely cover 7 frames.  The queen lays a good pattern, but. . .they just don't seem to be taking off.  It seems to me that this queen is not producing good genetics in the workers.

Would you -  
1. Steal a frame or two of brood from another hive
2. Replace the queen?

Status of other three hives.
1. Purchased 5/31/05 as a nuc, 2 bodies 3 supers
2. Purchased 4/30/06 as a nuc, 2 bodies, 2 supers
3. Purhcased 6/4/06 as a nuc, 2 bodies, 1 super

[Jerrymac]

I'm sure no one is trying to ignore you. I wouldn't know how to vote on these two options as I am way south of you and don't know when your cold temps start rolling in. I don't think we had anything to call a winter this past winter :shock: Fall just sort of turned to spring to summer before may ever got here. Still haven't had any rain to speak of. So I was wondering if you feel the hive is really weak, combine it with another and wait untill it is grown enough to split....

$.02

[thegolfpsycho]

I guess it depends on how much time you want to give them, and how many resources you want to devote to them. With a start on foundation I'm not so sure if 7 frames of bees is a real bad start in 7 or 8 weeks.  Between the dwindling that happens with any package, the slower growth of the brood nest on foundation, you probably aren't going to see much growth for at least the first 5 to 6 weeks.  Especially if it's been cool, or cold and rainy. The queen can't expand the brood nest beyond what the couple pounds of bees can manage. Thats one of the reasons I always try to give a package a frame of capped brood immediatly, as well as a frame of open larvae to hold them.  Essentially turning the package into a nuc.  Then it's got the potential for much more rapid developement.  

You say she lays a good pattern.  Does that mean there are alot of bees about to emerge?  If so, critical mass is about to be realized.  7 frames of bees can become 10 overnight.  There are other options.  Swap positions with your strongest colony, instant full box of bees and they can take off.  If your convinced the queen is poor, pinch and replace her, or combine em with your smallest colony.  Make a crop, and after harvesting, split them back onto drawn comb with a new queen and let them work the fall flow for winter stores.  Just depends what your goals and expectations are for them.

[amymcg]

She lays a good pattern, but only in a small area.  They are storing alot of nectar, and as the comb is drawn, they fill it with nectar right way.

Today I went down and took two frames of brood in various stages, capped, larvae, etc. . and put them in.  

I might just be paranoid. I've never had a package before, only nucs, so maybe I'm just overly worried.

I just needed to know what everyone else would do.

Thanks for the advice!

[BeeHopper]

She lays a good pattern, but only in a small area.  They are storing alot of nectar, and as the comb is drawn, they fill it with nectar right way.

Today I went down and took two frames of brood in various stages, capped, larvae, etc. . and put them in.  

I might just be paranoid. I've never had a package before, only nucs, so maybe I'm just overly worried.

I just needed to know what everyone else would do.

Thanks for the advice!

Hi Amy,

I started my first 2 colonies from packages (Buckfast Queens) on foundation and HFCS on April 23, about the middle of June they were out to 7 frames and the entrance traffic was light. I thought they were slow compared to a feral Queen/colony I caught a week after the packages, they were already drawn to the outer frames. The feral hive had more sun during the day than the other two ( I had realized they were in DEEP SHADE for almost the entire day, so I moved them out to full sun with shade after 2-3 pm. What a difference it made, now all three have 2 deeps with what looks like RUSH HOUR at the entrances. Good BROOD developement depends on higher temps in the hive. I thought I had 2 lazy bums instead of good queens, moving the hives was my corrective action. I would have RE-QUEENED if they did not improve by the end of June.

I hope your Queen improves with just the comb you've added, I would call the supplier and explain your situation, otherwise there is plenty of time to re-Queen.
Keep us Posted.

[Robo]

Amy,

I think you did the right thing by adding a couple of frames of brood and not requeening yet.  I agree with golf that you just haven't hit critical mass yet.  It has been a very wet Spring here in the NorthEast and I have had a few weaker hives almost starve.

I had a late split last year that never built up.  So I put them in my observation hive for the winter.  I kept them well fed, but they dwindled down  to just a handful of bees.  This Spring they just never really built up.  Like your queen,  she had a good solid brood pattern,  but it was never bigger than the size of a softball.  I thought sure it was just a "bad" queen, but since it was an observation hive I didn't really worry about it.  Just figured I wouldn't have to worry about them becoming cramped and swarming, etc.  

Then in April I needed a lure queen immediately to trap a swarm out of a stone chimney.  Not wanting to set back any of my hives,  I gabbed the one out of the observation hive.  It's about 3 months since I trapped the swarm out and the hive is doing great.  In fact, she has complete frames of brood from top to bottom bar,  not something you see too often.

[manowar422]

From what I understand, the key to build up is three fold.
(assuming empty drawn cells are present)
The availibility of pollen, number of nurse bees present
in the hive and viability of the queen herself.
Package bees on foundation are as the others have
correctly stated. They seem to reach a point when the
die off rate exceeds the emergance rate and the over-all
hive population dwindles. If the queen is healthy and the
hive has all the resources needed to raise eggs, then all
is well. If ANY of these things are missing, then the hive
will slow production, which for them, is a totally natural
thing to do at that point.

[Brian D. Bray]

With the wet weather the NE area is having I believe that 7 frames is not all that bad for a package of bees put on foundation.  Packages are notoriously slow to build up, especially when band weather comes into play, due to the limited number of bees, the die off rate and brood hatch ratio.  Until the hive has enough bees to more than cover the frames they're using they will be reluctant to build more comb.  It is not their nature to build more comb than they have bees to cover the comb they build (the exception to this is over wintering).
Placing a frame of brood from another hive into your packaged hive will do several things all at once: Influx of young bees that will cover all the frames and more so they will begin building more comb, More brood space for the resident queen to lay in as the transfered brood hatches which translates into a bigger hive much faster, and  within a few weeks a much larger forager crew goes to work, meanwhile, the hive is stronger and can defend itself better against parasites and predators.
Adding a frame of brood to a struggling hive is never a mistake unless the hive has AFB.  How the hive reacts to the influx of new bees can tell you a lot about the temperment of the hive and the quality of the queen.

[TwT]

I would add the brood frames from another hive and see what happens in a few weeks...

[leominsterbeeman]

Amy -

You did the right thing.  If you don't see a lot of wax build up in a few weeks,  then you should look at getting a new queen.  What is there temperment - do they seem more agressive than the other colonies?

I would do what you did.  I have one in the same condition.  i'm not expecting much honey from it this year.  I need to give the whole hive a boost.

[amymcg]

They are very docile.  I don't even smoke them.  I think it's just because they don't have the numbers to have alot of guards.  Everyone in the hive is tending brood.  In fact, the only time I heavily smoked them ever was when I was adding the frames of brood with nurse bees from the other hive.

In the two frames I added there were various stages of larvae and capped and emerging brood. I was watching a couple of them trying to come out when I was making sure the queen wasn't on them.


I have been trying to leave them alone as much as possible. When I do my inspections, I just try to pull a frame from the center of the nest to make sure there are larvae or brood so I know the queen is still in there.  

There were more bees coming in and out yesterday afternoon than on most days so I'm hoping some of that brood has emerged and is going on orientation flights.