Rqueening failed

tom · July 10, 2006, 07:40:05 PM

Hello

Well i have learned another lesson today i went to check to see if my new queen was released and she was not in the cage so i did my weekly inspection and found queen cells all over the place and no signs of my new queen. So i guess they killed her and i guess i did not wait long enough for the colony to be queenless. But i do have a new queen coming this week from honeyrunapriaires should i put her in as soon as she come it has been four days this colony has been without a queen and i destroyed all queen cells be be on the safe side how long before they start to rebuild the cells.

Tom

latebee · July 11, 2006, 12:44:49 AM

Tom, When you say you have queen cells all over the place,are you sure there were more than two frames of open brood when you introduced the queen? Seeing that you destroyed all the queen cell some time ago-I could not guess if you have larvae of the right age for them to draw emeregency cells at this point.

tom · July 11, 2006, 01:07:14 AM

Hello

LateBee there is young brood and i just destroyed the cells today after i found out the new queen was not there. I have another one coming tuesday so what should i do about introducing her should i leave her in the cage for a few days and make sure no more cells are around.

Tom

Brian D. Bray · July 11, 2006, 03:09:42 AM

My guess is that the existance of the queen cells is the reason the new queen was killed. They were evidently in a supercedure mode and the introduction of the new queen didn't fit their internal clock about such things.
I've found that is best to avoid trying to introduce a queen into a hive where queen cells exist. It will almost always fail--the bees seem to have a preference for their own home grow variety. In requeening it is just as important to remove potential future queens as well as the existing queen.

tom · July 11, 2006, 10:40:51 AM

Mr. Bray

The day i got my new queen i killed the old queen the same day and i waited for 7 hours before introduceing the new queen and i did a very good inspection of every frame before i put her in. And this was last friday and yesterday is when i found all of the queen cells and no new queen so i destroyed all cells because i am being sent a new queen.

Tom

abejaruco · July 11, 2006, 12:55:11 PM

I have had the same unnice experience. I took too many liberties with my black bees. A buckfasts queen in the "matadero", a disaster.
Usually I splitted a hive, put the young larvae, eggs, queen and old bees in the original location. In the new location a hive with emerging brood and young bees. I have been succesfull when the queen is introduced 24 hours later. This time were 5 hours and I have found, weeks later, many laying bees.

Finsky · July 11, 2006, 01:34:56 PM

When bees raise queen cells often they are not willing to accept new queen. When queen cells are capped it is easy to intoduce the queen. Still bees often their cells. Mostly new queen order to destroy cells.

It depens also on weather. In autumn its very difficult to get queen accepted. During these days I just give the new queen on combs and I look how bees react.

And remember Australian research: if you move queen one week after mating to another hive, bees replace them 80%. When you give over two week after mating 20% will be replaced.

tom · July 11, 2006, 04:59:06 PM

Hello

Ok i know my lesson now i looked this morning and they were building new queen cells my new queen will be here tomarrow. Is it safe to put her in and leave her in the cage for a few days and destroy all new queen cells and let her remain in there until they have gotten use to her for a couple of days.

Tom

Brian D. Bray · July 12, 2006, 12:06:40 AM

The point of my earlier post was that if you are going to introduce a new queen to a hive make sure all queen cells have been removed. Treat queens cells the same way you would an existing queen when requeening. The bees may very well kill the new queen if queen cells exist within the hive. Remove the cells then install the new queen the next day.

tom · July 12, 2006, 12:19:21 AM

Howdy

When i checked this morning there was no larvae in the cups and there is no eggs left and the larvae is over three days old but i am going to follow the great advice i have been given. But what is up with the vanilla extract how does that work you spray it on all of the bees and the queen and then release her. The way it sounds to me is that the whole hive will smell like vanilla alond with the queen so she will be one of them by the time the clean themselves off is this right just asking.

Tom

Brian D. Bray · July 12, 2006, 12:27:38 AM

>>The way it sounds to me is that the whole hive will smell like vanilla alond with the queen so she will be one of them by the time the clean themselves off is this right just asking.

Exactly, the smell of the vanilla masks the difference in the phenomores between the new queen and the old queen. In the confussion, and by the time the vanilla smell disapates the new queen rules.

tom · July 12, 2006, 12:37:00 AM

Hello

Thank you so much i am always up to trying something new Mr. Bray thank you for all of your advice you all have been such a great help like i said things has changed from when i use to keep bees back in the 80's it is good to have good people here.

Tom

Brian D. Bray · July 12, 2006, 02:32:44 AM

Yes, things have changed a lot in the beekeeping area since the 80's, but what I learned back in the 60's now feels like I learned in the stone age. What I am happiest about, since coming out of my hermitage, is that many of the ideas I have developed over the years are now fairly standard practice.
I refer to such things as slatted racks (which I called fanning boards), ventilated top and bottom boards, and more emphasis on naturopathic beekeeping.

mat · July 12, 2006, 08:51:11 AM

In the last, July, Bee Culture there is great modification to push in cage. Introduction with push in cage has been considered the best, but pulling it out is not easy, at least for me. I always loose sight of the queen and I don't know how was she treated. What they did they made an entrance in the corner using a piece of 3/8 tube filled with sugar candy. So after all adventages of push in cage the queen is freed by workers. The stress that there are no workers under the cage, and the cage should be oriented with the candy tube pointing upwards at a 45 deg angle.

tom · July 12, 2006, 10:09:36 AM

Hello

Mr. Bray you stated that the vanilla smell will cover the whole colony scent and the new queen. So what i am gathering is i spray every bee on the frames and the queen and then i can let her loose on the frame and when the smell i gone she is a part of the hive the reason why i am asking this is i don't want to mess up if this has worked before then i may have found a new way to introduce queens that i want to replace and i won't have to worry about this happening again. Thank you all for such great information i am glad to have found this forum.

Tom

Brian D. Bray · July 12, 2006, 05:14:22 PM

You have the essentials correct, but I still prefer to let the bees release the queen even with the smells masked. Call me old fashioned.

Zoot · July 14, 2006, 11:49:37 PM

Brian,

You made mention of ventilated top boards earlier in this chain; I assume you make your own and I was wondering if you have ever posted a description of your design preference here in the forum?

Brian D. Bray · July 15, 2006, 04:15:27 AM

For screened inner tops I cut out 6 inchs off each side of the top side of an inner top and then staple window screen over it. I make my tops so that they are 3/4 inches wider than normal and place 3/8 strips on each side to center it on the hive. this allows for a flow of air across the top of the hive that has little effect on the bees until they decide to use it by fanning. I use three slots for bee escapes. The bees can really move the air when they want to.
I'll be writing a column on this as part of my DuBray Progessive Beehive System in the near future on www.beekeepersvoice.com