Question about queenless swarm

[tillie]

About twelve days ago, Friday May 11, I found a small swarm on my deck in an empty deep.  I moved the hive so much and chaotically that the bees in the swarm balled and killed the queen.  I left the swarm in the deep they chose and added two frames of eggs, young brood and left them, hopefully to make a queen.

Tomorrow I plan to check the hive to see if any queen cells are present.  (I put the eggs and brood in on the 12th)

Should I move these five frames of bees and brood to a nuc box?
Should I leave them where they are?

I've ordered some 8 frame medium equipment which should be here this week and if this hive survives, I'd like them to be in 8 frame mediums in the end.

If there are no queen cells should I hurry and try to find a queen somewhere or give them more brood/eggs?

As always, thanks in advance for the help.

Linda T worried in Atlanta

[abejaruco]

Small swarm, and now queenless. Few future. Take a viable nucleus from another hive and add the bees from the swarm.

[Michael Bush]

It's always good insurance to give a frame of eggs and open brood to a possibly queenless colony.  It gives you a way to tell if they are queenless, it gives them the pheromones that supress laying workers and it gives them a way to resolve the problem if they are queenless.  Giving them a queen, will also probably let you know if they are queenless, but at the cost of a queen.

Minimum size for a very small amount of bees is a good idea.

[Cindi]

Linda, I am curious.  How do you know that they balled the queen?  Did you see it happen, see the dead queen?  I had that happen to me last year and I saw about 5-6 bees carrying their dead queen out the front entrance.  It still haunts me to this day.  I know that it was my fault they killed her.  She had been laying beautifully and then one cloudy and dark day I wanted to look into their hive to see how they were still doing.  Eveything looked great, eggs, larvae, capped brood.  Until the next morning, and he death was a result of me.  I imagine that the bees don't always kill their queen if they are disturbed in bad weather, but sometimes will blame the queen for the disturbance and kill her, go figure that one. 

I would combine this tiny swarm with another nuc.  It sounds like it is too small.  Remember, when the bees swarm, the inhabitants are both young and old bees.  It is going to be quite a while yet before they will have new babies emerging, unless you give them some emerging brood (or capped brood).  Have a great day, beautiful life, awesome health.  Cindi

[tillie]

Hi Cindy,

I saw them balling the queen, separated the ball and found her in the center of it.  I put pictures of the dead queen up on this forum to get confirmation.  She was longer than the worker bees and pointed at the end and while I think she was a virgin queen--she wasn't very fat and there were no eggs or larvae in the hive they had occupied.  So I knew I could combine them with another hive or try to let them grow their own queen.

I wanted the experience of seeing if I could supply them with what they needed to make a queen and grow a colony.  That is my only goal for them.  I'll keep adding frames of brood if needed as the summer goes, but we have a long warm season in Atlanta.  They may not make it, but if not, I'll combine them with another hive in the end. 

At the moment it is a wonderful experiment!

Linda T

[Cindi]

Linda, I didn't see the pictures.  Where did you post them?

I think that you are doing great stuff with experimentation.  That is wonderful to use as a learning tool.  Awesome!!!!  I want to do alot of experimentation this year too.  I feel that I have much more knowledge than last year and want to apply this knowledge to hands on stuff.  YOu have gained tremendous knowledge too, excellent!!!!  You were very lucky to have taken that course at Young Harris.  I would love to take another course.  Not a deep one, but just courses for more information, learning.  Keep on keepin' on, Linda.  Cindi

[Shizzell]

Its not even June yet. You live in georgia. Give them eggs and watch them carefully. They will develop into a good sized hive yet. Leave the hive where they are at, and if they don't make a queen with the eggs you gave them, order a queen or give them another frame of eggs.

Your doing fine.

;)

Jake

[tillie]

Cindi,
The pictures of the dead queen are on the 2nd page of this post:

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=9406.15

Linda T in hot and dry Atlanta

[Cindi]

Linda, thanks for taking the time to tell me where the pics were.  I looked at the topic and comments.  You had your hands full that day, but you got through it just fine.  Look at you now!!!!  Things are going great guns and yeah!!!!  Have a wonderful day, keep us posted on what is going on with the stuff.  Cindi

[smallswarm]

I have been thinking about this queen murder situation, and I wonder if some of the bees from your existing hives didn't appreciate the new swarm and did it... that cruel deed. I imagine that honey bees, like other bees and ants, are protective of nesting areas. You have quite a congregation going there on that little deck, and it just seems impossible to me that a swarm would destroy their own one and only queen. That's the equivalent of suicide.

[tillie]

I've read that they sometimes ball the queen when the hive has been moved too much and I certainly did that - moving and turning the box over three times in one day:

"Under the stressful conditions of hiving a swarm, transferring the colony to new equipment, or moving the hive, the workers will sometimes cluster tightly around the queen and attempt to sting her This is called balling the queen, and the workers sometimes kill her by stinging or suffocation."
--from http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/small_beekeeping/management_1.htm

I guess it could have been workers from a nearby hive, but I saw this happen and the workers in the ball went back into the swarm hive when I broke up the ball.

Linda T befuddled in Atlanta