Bee Math and Advice

asprince · June 24, 2007, 11:59:09 AM

Please help me confirm what I think I know or should know. I have a hive that I know became queenless on June 10. I know because I accidently shook the queen into a nuc. I saw her in the nuc the next day. Last Sunday, June 17, I was in the hive and saw one queen cell about a half inch long on the side of one of the frames. If I understand Michael's "bee math" link, she should emerge from the cell June 25 or 26. I should start seeing eggs on July 8 or 9 and larva on July 11 or 12. Comments on my math logic??

I am trying to determine when I will know for sure if the hive was successful in raising a new and productive queen. If they were not successful, should I buy a new queen rather than give them more brood from another hive since they will have been so long without a queen?

This WAS my stronger hive. Due to my inexperience and over management, they have been queenless twice this year and their numbers have suffered. I have to learn "things will work if you let them".

Steve

n9kww · June 24, 2007, 01:37:38 PM

Your math is correct. Presuming the bees had a one or two day old egg they started to turn into a queen. If that is the case you should be okay if notâ€¦.
I would start looking on the 26th to see if the cap is gone on the queen cell. I am assuming you saw it capped? If it is uncapped you have a better than average chance of a successful suppression. At this point if you donâ€™t see any progress after a few days, you will have to add a frame of brood and add a queen. You could take the chance that they will attempt to produce another queen, but this late in the season that is not a good choice. The honey flow is going on strong now, the longer you wait the dire the consequences will be.
The best choice is to wait a few day, then make your move
Beechgrove

Michael Bush · June 24, 2007, 02:30:31 PM

>became queenless on June 10. I know because I accidently shook the queen into a nuc. I saw her in the nuc the next day. Last Sunday, June 17, I was in the hive and saw one queen cell about a half inch long on the side of one of the frames. If I understand Michael's "bee math" link, she should emerge from the cell June 25 or 26. I should start seeing eggs on July 8 or 9 and larva on July 11 or 12.

Those are good guesses. Of course she may not emerge. If she does, she may not return from mating. Most years I'd say there were fair odds, but this year I've had a lot of troubles with hives going queenless after supersedures or swarming. Also some of my queens are not laying until a week or two later than expected. The weather doesn't seem adverse to me, but that's what's been happening.

asprince · June 27, 2007, 10:54:48 PM

O.K. I checked the hive this evening. The queen cell was open on the side. Does this mean that she has now emerged? If yes, then I guess there is nothing else for me to do other than wait to see if she starts laying?
In the mean time, the hive population is getting smaller. Maybe add a little brood from another hive??

A few notes that may mean nothing. There was only one queen cell. It was very small, barely .500 inch long. When I opend the hive this afternoon most of the bees in the brood box were clustered around the frame with the empty queen cell. The bees were unusually loud.

Steve

rdy-b · June 28, 2007, 01:57:24 AM

open from the side is not what you want to see. open from the tip is what you want to see. was the cell configured so there was a tip? or was it imbedded so as the side was only way out? roaring colony also bad sign. yes add frames with eggs brood and larvae. colony will quiet down quickly buying a freshly mated queen will get you up and running. sounds like you are learning a lot what where you doing with the nuc in the first place and how is it doing. worse comes to worse you could combine them.leting them roll there own queen can back fire and you lose precious time.but as long as you learn and have fun doing it no harm done 8-) RDY-B

indypartridge · June 28, 2007, 07:53:08 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on June 24, 2007, 02:30:31 PM
...this year I've had a lot of troubles with hives going queenless after supersedures or swarming. Also some of my queens are not laying until a week or two later than expected. The weather doesn't seem adverse to me, but that's what's been happening.

This is what I love about this forum. As a relative newbee (3rd year) there are many times when I wonder if I'm doing something ignorant, or if it's just "one of those things". Reading that experienced beeks are having problems similar to mine makes me feel a bit less incompetent (misery loves company?).

Kev · June 28, 2007, 09:19:40 PM

I'm struggling with similar problems. I got a feral colony from a barn about a month ago. A week ago, I bought a nuc.

The bees in the nuc are working hard and drawing comb. The barn colony is losing numbers (there are only capped drone cells and a few larvae from what I think is a laying worker) Tonight, I checked the nuc and found three uncapped queen cells on one frame with some spotty brood and larvae. So, I pulled the frame with the queen cells, brushed off the bees, and put it in the barn bee hive.

Now, I'm having second thoughts and wonder whether I should have done that. The nuc still has brood on two sides of two remaining frames, pretty solid pattern on one side and somewhat less on the other. My fear is that by doing this, I'm risking both hives. (I have no idea why the nuc is building queen cells either. I have trouble believing it's queenless.)

Any advice?

kev

Michael Bush · June 28, 2007, 10:28:52 PM

>The queen cell was open on the side. Does this mean that she has now emerged? I

Probably ANOTHER queen emerged and tore that one down.

asprince · June 28, 2007, 10:45:59 PM

I may have rushed things today. I purchased a new queen and placed her (in cage) in the hive about an hour ago. I now may have a new queen and a virgin queen in the same hive.

Michael, there was only one queen cell in the hive. Are you saying that I possibly overlook another cell or cells?

I guess I will know for sure if they kill the caged queen. Right?

Steve

rdy-b · June 28, 2007, 11:08:22 PM

how was the cell placed on the frame.was the side the only way out?

asprince · June 28, 2007, 11:27:23 PM

The tip was still closed and the side had a 1/16 x 1/8 opening in the side. Again, this cell was half or less the size of other queen cells that I have seen.

Interesting note. When I introduced the queen tonight, the bees seem to be ignore her. Out of the thousands of bees, only two or three were on the cage. When I introduced queens in the past, they quickly covered the cage.

rdy-b, to answer your questions from an earlier post, I shook the bees in the nuc and added some brood/eggs so the bees could make me a back up queen. I accidently shook in the queen. She is doing great in her new but smaller home.

Steve

rdy-b · June 29, 2007, 12:06:47 AM

the reaction to the queen was not hostile that is good gentle acceptance is good.the hole you speak of is very small. the cell was probably bad any way.if you can mark the new queen then we will know for sure what happens. you have a good queen you will be in good shape let us know ;) RDY-B

Michael Bush · June 29, 2007, 09:53:34 PM

>Michael, there was only one queen cell in the hive. Are you saying that I possibly overlook another cell or cells?

Or a virgin queen.

asprince · June 30, 2007, 10:20:44 PM

It has been two days since I introduced the new queen to this hive. I took a quick look into the hive. She was still alive and had not been released. I opened the cage and let her go. I said a prayer for her hoping that she is the only queen in the hive and will lead the hive to a speedy recovery. I will look again next weekend; I should be able to see eggs and larva.

rdy-b · July 01, 2007, 01:03:52 AM

:)

Kirk-o · July 01, 2007, 10:38:04 AM

Good luck cross your fingers
kirk-0