Small swarm hive without a queen AGAIN

[tillie]

Sunday I checked my small swarm hive - it's been slow in growing and I was worried.  I put a frame of capped honey in to feed them and then noticed that there weren't any more bees than the last time I looked a couple of weeks ago.  I pulled all the frames and looked and found no new brood or larvae.  So the queen who I saw and photographed apparently is gone - dead, missing, something. 

I put two new frames of brood and eggs into the hive from two other hives and later in the day noticed robbing type flying around the hive.  I put on the robber screen, but then worried more since I moved two frames from two different hives - did that start all the commotion???

Anyway now I want to know should I simply order a queen and try that instead of trying to get them to make a queen?  Is it too late in the season for them to build up and should I just give up and combine?

Linda T discouraged in Atlanta

[mgmoore7]

Linda
I like reading your blog.  I don't have much to add as I am much newer than you. 

If time is short, maybe purchasing a queen is the best option.  Do you have a flow coming in the fall?  You might want to be sure you can have a queen by then wheather by purchase of making one so they will be able to build up before winter.  Your winter is mild but you do have much more of one than me. 

By the way, did you see my post about the S & M hive beetle trap in the disease forum.  It is working for me. 

[Kathyp]

maybe you could combine them now and split them in the spring?

i had one that i thought was queenless.  couldn't find the queen.  no eggs and no brood.  i had already requeened this hive so i was disappointed.  a couple of weeks later, brood again.  even though i couldn't find her, she must have been there taking a break. 

sometimes i just have no clue what's going on.

[Robo]

This is one of the bad sides of letting them raise their own queens.  I find the "queen gone" phenomena much higher in hives that raise an emergency queen.  Don't know why they tend to find fault with these queens more often and dispose of them,  even though they appear to be fine performers to us humans.  The good news is you still have plenty of time to get them ready for Winter.   Fall queens are of a much higher quality that early Spring queens,  so I would suggest getting a queen and building them up as much as you can as opposed the joining them and then splitting in the Spring.   In fact you have nothing to loose, because even if you do join them,  the  remaining hive will be no stronger in the Spring, as they will downsize to their desired winter cluster size.  Unless you join them with another weak hive that is also questionable.  You might have to put them in a nuc for winter, but that works fine.    I will be putting together some 5 frame nucs in a few weeks and you are much further South than me.

[Robo]

i had one that i thought was queenless.  couldn't find the queen.  no eggs and no brood.  i had already requeened this hive so i was disappointed.  a couple of weeks later, brood again.  even though i couldn't find her, she must have been there taking a break. 

Was it a marked queen?  If not,  I would bet they superseded your re-queen.

[Kathyp]

robo, i had thought about that, but i don't think there was enough time. we went through a really slow spell where i had to feed one of the hives.  i think maybe they just took a break until there was food again.  i found eggs right after we had  some rain and the wild flowers popped up.

[Robo]

You could very well be right, but since there was no brood that means the queen had to be gone or not laying for at least 21 days.  Add the couple of weeks until you saw brood again easily gives enough time for a new queen.  I know weather can cause the bees to slow down brood rearing, but I don't recall ever having a queen-right hive completely shutting down all brood rearing for 3 weeks in the Spring/Summer.

Mark those queens so you could know for sure.

[tillie]

I'll see if I can order a queen from someone.  The Purvis Brothers and Fatbeeman are all within easy driving distance from me.  I haven't had the experience of requeening a hive so that could be an adventure all by itself.

This forum is so supportive - thanks to everyone for being there.  I was so discouraged on Sunday that I wanted to crawl under a hive myself.

Linda T in Atlanta

[Kathyp]

the only lesson i learned this year about requeening is not to rush it.  the first one i did, i let the queen out after a couple of days.  i'm pretty sure i lost her because i didn't wait long enough.  that hive had to be requeened not to much later. i let them raise their own.   the second one, i left the cage in for 5 days and didn't let her out until they really seemed happy with her.  that one took.  they had almost gotten her out by themselves but progress seemed delayed by a dead worker in the cage.

one other thing....it worked better for me to peal the screen back and let her crawl out onto hive by herself.  some people poke out the candy if they need to release the queen, but i am not that coordinated  :-).  i didn't want to stab her.

[Michael Bush]

You can let them try to rear an queen and combine if they don't get established.

You can combine now and avoid the rush.

You can buy a queen and see if they can get established and combine if they don't.

Those are all viable plans.  The only disadvantage to buying a queen is the cost.

[tillie]

I think it would be fun to see the Purvis Brothers' apiary or Fatbeeman's  - and I've never had the experience of introducing a queen, so I'm always up for adventure - north Georgia, here I come.

I've learned a lot trying to foster queens in two different small hives - it's interesting to find out what happens - albeit discouraging sometimes.  Right now I'm teaching a semester at Emory and don't have time to bother them too much - which is good news for the bees!

Thanks, Michael and everyone for the support and encouragement.

Linda T in Atlanta

[annette]

Good Luck Tillie on the requeening. As you know, I requeened one of my hives this past May and it was quite an adventure. I was lucky as they accepted her.

You will be fine. With all you have been through, this will be one of the easiest. Let us know how it goes. I will be waiting to see.

Sincerely,
Annette

[tillie]

If I order a queen and they by some miracle made one in that waiting time, and I don't recognize that they have, will they kill the introduced queen? 

I guess if I open the hive to introduce the queen and can see that they have made a queen by virtue of new brood, I could just make a split from one of my two strong hives and put the new purchased queen in it???

Linda T frequently confused in Atlanta

[annette]

Hi Linda,

If they have a queen already they will for sure kill the caged queen. They could have made a queen and she is still a virgin, in which case you would not see brood yet. Everything is a risk with these bees. When I introduced my caged queen, I also was not sure what would happen. You know also that sometimes even when they are queenless, they do not accept the new caged queen.

This is a dilemma, but as you said you could do a split and yes you could use this queen if you find they already made a queen.  When do you expect the queen to arrive??? My guess is you will introduce the new queen before they have time to make one. (You know the math, I do not off hand) I think it will work out fine.

Wait to hear from other beekeepers, of course, and keep us posted.


Sincerely,
Annette

[Brian D. Bray]

Queens will often quit laying during periods of drought or dearth and will appear queenless.  Then after a short period of rainfall she will crank it back up again.  In evaluating whether or not a hive is queenless weather conditions must be taken into account--some indicators of dearth are lots of bees with little foraging activity, suspension of comb building or capping of stores, reopening of previously capped stores, and sustained aggresive temperment.  The queen will slim down during a dearth just as she does before swarming so she's harder to spot.  Dearth and drought will also usually affect most or all of the hives in a specific beeyard.  Bear in mind that 1 yard might be in dearth while 1 just a few miles away is carrying in the nectar by the buckets full.

In the months of July & August it is just as likely a dearth suspension of brood laying as it is a lost queen.  I recommend of always testing a suspected queenless hive with a frame of brood from another hive (or another yard) to gage the reaction of the bees to the brood.  If they build queen cells you have 2 options: let them grow there own queen or order 1 and destroy the cells.

[tillie]

Today I combined the small swarm hive and another small hive I had from the hive with two queens.  Both appear currently queenless, and the small swarm hive was being robbed.  I took the small swarm hive apart and found the former brood cells full of wax moth worms and the honey frames relatively intact, with about half robbed out.

The hive I wanted to combine with had been using only its top box and entering from the top.  I opened that box to find no evidence of a queen and a very good looking queen cell.  In its bottom box again I found wax moth worms and mess.  I pulled all wax moth frames from both hives.

I combined them, putting the usable frames and the bees from the small swarm hive in the bottom box of the new hive since the current residents weren't using it.  I added a frame of brood from a strong hive.  I put grass in front of the entrance to help with orientation.  I then put newspaper with a couple of slits in it between that box and the upper box where the queen cell was.  I added two great brood and tiny larvae frames from a strong hive to the upper box.  I left the cover propped since that is how they were coming and going.

So now if there's no queen evident in a couple of weeks, I'll order a queen for this combined hive.  I hope that is what I was supposed to do. 

I left the brick base of the Small Swarm Hive still in place - makes me sad that it didn't work out, but I really learned a lot from this attempt.

Linda T continually learning bee things in Atlanta

[Cindi]

Hey Linda, I think that you are doing a great job.  I notice things you say.  And I think that you do so well with all your little experiments with your bees.  Your posts are interesting, as is your blog.  Have a wonderful day, keep your chin up and don't, whatever you do, climb underneath your hive with defeat  ;)  Cindi