Nuc Idea

Moonshae · July 31, 2007, 07:58:56 PM

How often do overwintered bees need to do cleansing flights?

I've had an off-the-wall idea to make a nuc this fall, and keep it inside the house with the entrance blocked but ventilated (Betterbee makes 5-frame nucs with 4 entrance settings, and the closed one allows for ventilation but no room for bees to escape), and top-feeder fed. Assuming I could take the nuc outside for the day on "warm" days to allow them to take cleansing flights frequently enough (putting the nuc back in the same spot it spent all fall, so the girls would know where they are) and to refill the feeder, would this work better than an early spring split, when I may not have the honey/pollen stores on frames to split away? Or is this a sure way to kill the bees I split away, weakening my current hives and making it harder to make a nuc in the spring?

On a semi-related note, if the queen never leaves the hive once she's mated, I'm assuming she's the exception to the never-defecate-in-the-hive "rule" of bees?

pdmattox · July 31, 2007, 08:06:53 PM

I think you are better off just doing the early spring split. You can feed pollen and sugar water to get them off to a good start that way. the queen has attendants to take care of her dirty business.

Robo · July 31, 2007, 10:02:06 PM

I tried keeping them in my basement with an exit to the outside with mixed results. I have since switched to keeping them outside with supplemental heat from a night light and have had much better success.

Michael Bush · July 31, 2007, 10:16:46 PM

>How often do overwintered bees need to do cleansing flights?

As often as possible.

>I've had an off-the-wall idea to make a nuc this fall, and keep it inside the house with the entrance blocked but ventilated

Why? Blocking the entrance is a VERY BAD IDEA. I overwinter observation hives every winter and the only time they die is WHEN THE ENTRANCE GETS BLOCKED BY DEAD BEES. As long as it's open they do fine.

> (Betterbee makes 5-frame nucs with 4 entrance settings, and the closed one allows for ventilation but no room for bees to escape), and top-feeder fed. Assuming I could take the nuc outside for the day on "warm" days to allow them to take cleansing flights frequently enough (putting the nuc back in the same spot it spent all fall, so the girls would know where they are)

They will not remember 72 hours after they have been cooped up where they used to be.

>Or is this a sure way to kill the bees I split away, weakening my current hives and making it harder to make a nuc in the spring?

Blocking the entrance is a sure way to kill the bees. Make an outside exit if you want to winter them indoors.

My nuc wintering so far:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm

>On a semi-related note, if the queen never leaves the hive once she's mated, I'm assuming she's the exception to the never-defecate-in-the-hive "rule" of bees?

Yes, her attendants clean it up. Talk about brown nosing...

Understudy · July 31, 2007, 10:40:57 PM

Robo,

What are using for getting the temprature readings? (Hardware and Software)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Moonshae · August 01, 2007, 08:37:02 AM

Thanks for the input. I like the inside with an outside entrance; I don't think I could safely run a wire to a lightbulb outside, and I have a window with an "exit" already (air conditioner exhaust vent) that I normally close off in the winter.

Robo · August 01, 2007, 09:37:58 AM

The biggest problem I had was getting them to fly in the Spring. The basement was a pretty consistent temperature and the window was on the North side of the house so it did not get direct sunlight. Give them plenty of ventilation, especially on top if you are planning on feeding syrup.

Moonshae · August 29, 2007, 08:38:09 PM

I've moved forward with this idea. Based on what people have said, feeding sugar syrup all winter can lead to dysentery. Would it help to feed nucs kept in the basement this way honey every third or fourth filling? I don't want to buy the amount of honey necessary to feed that exclusively all winter, but if 1/3 or 1/4 of the feedings were honey and that would help, I could manage that.

As far as the sugar syrup goes, I've been figuring 2:1 for that...right? I would be adding Honey Bee Healthy to every sugar syrup feeding.

Also, would it be better to keep them in the warmer or cooler part of the basement? Warmer being, probably 70-80 degrees, and the cooler part being 50-60.

rdy-b · August 29, 2007, 08:50:22 PM

bees winter better on sucrose than honey i would not feed honey inless it came from my own bees never know may be afb or something else. HFCS is a nother matter go with sucrose RDY-B

Michael Bush · August 29, 2007, 10:39:28 PM

>I've moved forward with this idea. Based on what people have said, feeding sugar syrup all winter can lead to dysentery. Would it help to feed nucs kept in the basement this way honey every third or fourth filling?

The best way to "feed" them is to give them combs of capped honey.

> I don't want to buy the amount of honey necessary to feed that exclusively all winter, but if 1/3 or 1/4 of the feedings were honey and that would help, I could manage that.

The problem with syrup is it has to be dried and it raises the humidity to do that.

>As far as the sugar syrup goes, I've been figuring 2:1 for that...right?

That would be better than 1:1

> I would be adding Honey Bee Healthy to every sugar syrup feeding.

Why? In my experience it sets off robbing. If you have a nice warm day they other bees will be looking for food and be attracted to the lemongrass oil smell and you could set off a robbing incident.

>Also, would it be better to keep them in the warmer or cooler part of the basement? Warmer being, probably 70-80 degrees, and the cooler part being 50-60.

With a hive of any size, I'd say the 50-60 is better and 40 would be even better. With an observation hive, it's kind of nice for them to have 70 F or so so they can raise a small batch of brood from time to time to keep the population up. Make sure they have some combs with pollen and some combs of capped honey.

Moonshae · August 30, 2007, 10:43:24 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on August 29, 2007, 10:39:28 PM
The best way to "feed" them is to give them combs of capped honey.

The problem with syrup is it has to be dried and it raises the humidity to do that.

> I would be adding Honey Bee Healthy to every sugar syrup feeding.

Why? In my experience it sets off robbing. If you have a nice warm day they other bees will be looking for food and be attracted to the lemongrass oil smell and you could set off a robbing incident.

I don't have capped honey, especially in excess, with which to feed them, this being my first year and missing the spring flow.

I thought the HBH would help prevent problems associated with sugar feeding. If it wouldn't serve any purpose, I'd be just as happy not using it.

Would feeding fondant be better? Would I need to then supply a water source if I did that, or would there be sufficient moisture in the fondant?

Quote from: Michael Bush on August 29, 2007, 10:39:28 PM

With a hive of any size, I'd say the 50-60 is better and 40 would be even better. With an observation hive, it's kind of nice for them to have 70 F or so so they can raise a small batch of brood from time to time to keep the population up. Make sure they have some combs with pollen and some combs of capped honey.

With these nucs, unless they can pack in some honey between now and winter, it will be tough for me to provide them with capped honey at all. If the fondant is a good idea, could I supply a pollen patty, too? Having them raise a bit of brood all winter seems like a good idea.

Robo · August 30, 2007, 11:06:27 AM

Quote from: Understudy on July 31, 2007, 10:40:57 PM
Robo,

What are using for getting the temprature readings? (Hardware and Software)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Sorry Brendhan, missed your question.

hardware -> Dallas 1-wire DS1820 thermometer.

software -> DigiTemp running on a Linux server.

I'm working on instrumenting a couple of polystyrene hives and an all medium wooden hive for this winter to do a comparison.

Robo · August 30, 2007, 11:11:56 AM

Quote from: Moonshae on August 30, 2007, 10:43:24 AM
Would feeding fondant be better? Would I need to then supply a water source if I did that, or would there be sufficient moisture in the fondant?

I have had much better results wintering nucs on sugar candy than syrup. I don't provide any water, they seem to produce enough moisture, but they are outside. Providing a water source wouldn't be a bad idea in your case I guess.

Understudy · August 31, 2007, 04:36:15 PM

Thanks for the information Robo. If I am ever home long enough I may try to implement some of it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Michael Bush · August 31, 2007, 06:11:38 PM

>Would feeding fondant be better?

It is less prone to robbing, but they won't stock it away like they will syrup.

> Would I need to then supply a water source if I did that, or would there be sufficient moisture in the fondant?

A lot of the moisture comes from condensation fo the moisture given off by the bees in respiration and metabolism.

If you can't get two or three frames of capped honey how light are your hives? If you have one strong hive and you feed it heavily it should be able to put away 60 pounds or so of syrup this time of year. If that isn't enough capped honey for an observation hive, then you built it too big. :)

Moonshae · August 31, 2007, 09:14:33 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on August 31, 2007, 06:11:38 PM
If you can't get two or three frames of capped honey how light are your hives? If you have one strong hive and you feed it heavily it should be able to put away 60 pounds or so of syrup this time of year. If that isn't enough capped honey for an observation hive, then you built it too big. :)

I have two strong hives and two nucs (created from three frames from each hive; two brood and one pollen/honey). The two strong hives were started from packages, and I've been feeding them 1:1 to encourage them to draw the replaced frames. I figured starting in September, I'd begin 2:1 to help them put away stores, but all along, I've been planning on giving each strong hive a 25-lb block of fondant, just to be sure they have enough to get through the winter. The inside hives, after consulting with you guys earlier in this thread, I was going to feed fondant and pollen patties to keep them going through the winter in the basement.

In my area, it seems like there's a spring flow (my town has a TON of crabapple trees that bloom heavily, and seemingly no other beekeepers [1 sq mile town size]), and then a summer dearth and a fall trickle. There's not much goldenrod to speak of...a plant here, a plant there. Certainly not enough to call a flow. Neither of my strong hives have much in the way of stores right now...but they sure have a lot of brood. Still seeing a lot of eggs.

I'm envious of you folks in the country where things seem to be easier. There aren't a lot of flowers in my area after May/early June. My expansion plans next year include finding places to keep hive all year that allow for significantly better forage, and I'm hoping to seed my lawn with dutch clover, for a littl extra for my girls.