Need some advice

dlmarti · October 11, 2007, 01:09:55 PM

This story is kind of long, but here it goes (shortened as much as possible):

Middle of August, I pulled 10 frames of bees (mostly honey, one frame of brood, only a hand full of uncapped brood), and dropped them in to double height medium nuc. The plan was for my friend to run out and get a queen the next day.

Middle of September, I was visiting him (apiary is on his property), he never went out to get the queen. Various more important issues arose.

I checked the nuc, and it was completely bare of all honey (robbed blind by the other hives), and down to a half a frame of brood and only a couple of pounds of bees left.

The presence of brood made me believe that someone was laying eggs, and the absence of drone bees made me think its a real queen not a laying worker. I took the nuc home, so that I could attempt to save it, or at least learn something from it.

Fast forward to now (middle of October), here is the state of things:
1. Hive is now in two medium boxes.
2. Hive is still extremely week, with maybe 6-8 pounds of bees.
3. Brood pattern is very spotty, but still no drones (can't find the queen but she must be there).
4. Hive is extremely calm (absolutely NO agression)
5. Until this week the hive was pulling in massive amounts of pollen.
6. Hive is taking in a Quart of syrup each day
7. I have noticed roaches on the bottom board of the hive, the bees appear to be ignoring them completely.

3 frames of fully drawn and capped honey
2 frames of spotty brood (mixed stages of development)
5 frames of uncapped honey
3 frames of partially drawn foundation, with some uncapped honey
7 empty frames.

I am currently feeding constantly, and providing pollen packs.

Is there anyway of salvaging this hive, until a spring re-queening? I think its pretty miraculous that there is a queen, but she doesn't appear to be the best layer. She probably mated during a time when very few drones were available. It would be a darn shame to lose her genes, because this is the easiest hive I have ever seen to work with, but given her laying patterns she isn't the best producer. The bees are so docile, they are like caring for a plant instead of an insect. They just do their work and completely ignore me, or any of my actions with the hive. Moving them from the nuc to the new hive, was just a simple matter of scooping them up with my hands and putting them in the new hive.

Old Timer · October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM

>1. Hive is now in two medium boxes.

that's good

>2. Hive is still extremely week, with maybe 6-8 pounds of bees.

that's somewhere between 18,000 to 24,000 bees, roughly 3000 to a pound. it might be more like 3500.

>3. Brood pattern is very spotty, but still no drones (can't find the queen but she must be there).

kinda typical as the bees will start backfilling areas of the broodnest this time of year. the queen can only lay in empty cells.

>4. Hive is extremely calm (absolutely NO agression)

that's the way i like my bees :)

>5. Until this week the hive was pulling in massive amounts of pollen.

have you had a frost up there yet? evreything is starting to dry up here and there is increasingly less forage available.

>6. Hive is taking in a Quart of syrup each day

hope your feeding 2:1. if the hive is as empty as you say it is, i'd be worried if they was not taking in syrup.

>7. I have noticed roaches on the bottom board of the hive, the bees appear to be ignoring them completely.

don't worry about them, they pose no threat to the bees and are there fro a hiding place and for warmth.

>Is there anyway of salvaging this hive, until a spring re-queening?

keep feeding them and make sure they don't run out of food over the winter. if you have a hive that has a lot of brood in it, maybe give the weak hive a frame from that one and possibly from another. i've had some late swarm before and have had the bees overwinter on about four or five deep frames though the winter without feeding. it sounds like the main thing is to get more brood in the hive so it has more young bees to overwinter with.

dlmarti · October 11, 2007, 04:42:20 PM

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
>3. Brood pattern is very spotty, but still no drones (can't find the queen but she must be there).

kinda typical as the bees will start backfilling areas of the broodnest this time of year. the queen can only lay in empty cells.

The brood area is mostly empty cells, with some spotty capped cells.

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
>4. Hive is extremely calm (absolutely NO agression)

that's the way i like my bees :)

I mentioned this, because they are calm to the point of it being completely atypical from my limited experience.
They completely ignore me, or my actions, and just work around my explorations. I don't even use a veil nor any smoke on this hive anymore.

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
>5. Until this week the hive was pulling in massive amounts of pollen.

have you had a frost up there yet? evreything is starting to dry up here and there is increasingly less forage available.

No frost, and day time temps are just beginning to fall into the 60's. We've had a pretty atypical fall so far.
Until the rains started, they were foraging continuously.

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
>6. Hive is taking in a Quart of syrup each day

hope your feeding 2:1. if the hive is as empty as you say it is, i'd be worried if they was not taking in syrup.

Yes, 2 parts sugar to 1 part water.

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
>7. I have noticed roaches on the bottom board of the hive, the bees appear to be ignoring them completely.

don't worry about them, they pose no threat to the bees and are there fro a hiding place and for warmth.

Won't they get into the uncapped honey?

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
>Is there anyway of salvaging this hive, until a spring re-queening?

keep feeding them and make sure they don't run out of food over the winter. if you have a hive that has a lot of brood in it, maybe give the weak hive a frame from that one and possibly from another. i've had some late swarm before and have had the bees overwinter on about four or five deep frames though the winter without feeding. it sounds like the main thing is to get more brood in the hive so it has more young bees to overwinter with.

Yeah, that is pretty much my plan. Since the temps are now dropping, I won't be able to visually monitor what my feedings are doing to the inside of the hive any longer. Is there a point in which feeding them is detrimental in the winter?

Also I know I'm probably not going to be believed in this, but they appear to be foraging and active even during times when they shouldn't be. They feed from the boardman feeder 24 hours a day, even at 3 am in the morning. They fly and forage even in moderate rains. This one hive is completely atypical from my others.

Kathyp · October 11, 2007, 05:30:27 PM

i think even the southerners have mentioned slow down at this time of the year.

what are your night temps? between the colder nights and the shorter days, the queen will really slow down. last time i was in my hive i found only small amounts of brood in each hive. they are filling in the empty cells with syrup and pollen. that's normal.

my observation with critters other than bees, is that the length of the day has as much, if not more more, to do with triggering winter behavior than the temps. chickens lay less, breeding cycles are decreased, etc.

Old Timer · October 11, 2007, 05:33:47 PM

>Is there a point in which feeding them is detrimental in the winter?

i've never fed my bees through the winter. i make sure they have enough stores beforehand. managing bees is something that isn't usually done at the last minute, because by then it's usually too late. if they starve (your fault) it's usually before the spring flow, late winter, after they use up all their store to raise brood and have no way to replace it. this is when it's most important to watch them to make sure they have enough.

>They feed from the boardman feeder 24 hours a day, even at 3 am in the morning.

that is not uncommon. i'll get up and go to the refrigerator at 3 am too.

>They fly and forage even in moderate rains.

again, this is not uncommon.

>Middle of August, I pulled 10 frames of bees (mostly honey, one frame of brood, only a hand full of uncapped brood), and dropped them in to double height medium nuc.

This IS NOT how to make a nuc. here lies your main problem. one frame of capped brood, one frame of open brood, two frames of honey and pollen if using deeps, and a queen on hand to put in 24 hours later. also shake extra bees into the nuc. now you didn't seal them up and move them, or seal them up for three days so the bees would reorient themselves upon release. so most of all the bees you put in the nuc went back to the parent colony, not only that, but they came back and robbed the nuc out. the young bees left in the hive that weren't foragers yet could not defend the honey as they were heavily outnumbered. with only one frame of brood, the only young bees were probably the ones on the brood, so you went from 10 frames of bees, to 9 frames of robbers and one frame of new bees. it's a wonder there was even enough bees left to raise a queen, which is notable in this underdeveloped malnourished excuse of a queen you now have that lays an extremely spotty pattern. you need to learn how to make up a nuc before you try again. and don't say you sealed them up and your friend opened them up, he couldn't even pick up a phone to order a queen and you hadn't been there for a month after you made it up.

i don't understand why your friend didn't get a queen. how hard is it to pick up the phone and place an order. five minutes at the most. this cost you at least three weeks of brood laying. was you making the nuc to give to him? if so, he don't deserve it. if he couldn't do it, he should have let you know. you should have called him and stayed on him about ordering a queen and if he balked too long about it, i'd ordered one myself. or better yet, i would of had a queen on hand before making the nuc. i can't think of any excuse for not getting that queen. i never make up nucs after the end of june, it's just too late, imo. you can feed them to build them up, but it's still not as good as what mother nature provides for them. now you have a little hive that was started too late that your worried to death about due to ineptness of your friend and yourself. the best time to make nucs is not in august, when you are in a dearth, it is early in the year, before july, when you find some swarm cells or supecedure cells or after you ordered some queens, when you have abundant bees, when you still have time to requeen if necessary, when you have time to feed to get them for winter if need be. it seems you're now doing what you should, though imo all this could have been avoided if you would have made the nuc up properly and had a queen available. i'm not trying to berate you but i want you to learn from this.

Old Timer · October 11, 2007, 05:35:26 PM

>i think even the southerners have mentioned slow down at this time of the year.

if he would have made the nuc up right to begin with he wouldn't be worried about it now.

Brian D. Bray · October 12, 2007, 02:30:01 AM

>> 3 frames of partially drawn foundation, with some uncapped honey
>> 7 empty frames.

I would pull the 3 partially drawn frames and freeze them to feed back to the hive later. With that done, remove the 7 empty frames and the upper super--bees will often over winter in a single box and by giving them less valume to keep warm you are aiding their chances of survival. The continue to feed the bees while the further condense the nectar into honey and cap it off. Force them to backfill all but a small area for them to cluster over and for the queen to maintain a small brood chamber for die off replacement.
He friend is not a beekeeper, he is a bee haver.

dlmarti · October 12, 2007, 10:53:39 AM

Quote from: Old Timer on October 11, 2007, 05:33:47 PM
>Middle of August, I pulled 10 frames of bees (mostly honey, one frame of brood, only a hand full of uncapped brood), and dropped them in to double height medium nuc.

This IS NOT how to make a nuc. here lies your main problem. one frame of capped brood, one frame of open brood, two frames of honey and pollen if using deeps, and a queen on hand to put in 24 hours later. also shake extra bees into the nuc. now you didn't seal them up and move them, or seal them up for three days so the bees would reorient themselves upon release. so most of all the bees you put in the nuc went back to the parent colony, not only that, but they came back and robbed the nuc out. the young bees left in the hive that weren't foragers yet could not defend the honey as they were heavily outnumbered. with only one frame of brood, the only young bees were probably the ones on the brood, so you went from 10 frames of bees, to 9 frames of robbers and one frame of new bees. it's a wonder there was even enough bees left to raise a queen, which is notable in this underdeveloped malnourished excuse of a queen you now have that lays an extremely spotty pattern. you need to learn how to make up a nuc before you try again. and don't say you sealed them up and your friend opened them up, he couldn't even pick up a phone to order a queen and you hadn't been there for a month after you made it up.

i don't understand why your friend didn't get a queen. how hard is it to pick up the phone and place an order. five minutes at the most. this cost you at least three weeks of brood laying. was you making the nuc to give to him? if so, he don't deserve it. if he couldn't do it, he should have let you know. you should have called him and stayed on him about ordering a queen and if he balked too long about it, i'd ordered one myself. or better yet, i would of had a queen on hand before making the nuc. i can't think of any excuse for not getting that queen. i never make up nucs after the end of june, it's just too late, imo. you can feed them to build them up, but it's still not as good as what mother nature provides for them. now you have a little hive that was started too late that your worried to death about due to ineptness of your friend and yourself. the best time to make nucs is not in august, when you are in a dearth, it is early in the year, before july, when you find some swarm cells or supecedure cells or after you ordered some queens, when you have abundant bees, when you still have time to requeen if necessary, when you have time to feed to get them for winter if need be. it seems you're now doing what you should, though imo all this could have been avoided if you would have made the nuc up properly and had a queen available. i'm not trying to berate you but i want you to learn from this.

The question was not what was done wrong, but is there any way to salvage the situation.
I didn't know he didn't get the queen until a month later, they are/were his bees after all. I only became owner of the situation after the nuc was in trouble. We have a source for queens just thirty minutes away, he told me he was going to get the queen as soon as he got up in the morning.

I know the nuc was started late, but given the area and available fall necter sources it had a good chance to survive. As too the robbing issue, being new myself, I had never encountered it before. We still have pollen and necter flow going on right now, in my location.

Old Timer · October 12, 2007, 01:30:49 PM

Quote from: dlmarti on October 12, 2007, 10:53:39 AM

The question was not what was done wrong, but is there any way to salvage the situation.
I didn't know he didn't get the queen until a month later, they are/were his bees after all. I only became owner of the situation after the nuc was in trouble. We have a source for queens just thirty minutes away, he told me he was going to get the queen as soon as he got up in the morning.

I know the nuc was started late, but given the area and available fall necter sources it had a good chance to survive. As too the robbing issue, being new myself, I had never encountered it before. We still have pollen and necter flow going on right now, in my location.

It may have not been a question, but it is the main cause of your problem. The wording in your original post led me to believe the bees were yours and you had them in an outyard. As for having a nectar flow, with starting the nuc out with nine frames of honey, it was already honey bound and the bees would not of had a place to store any nectar. On the robbing issue, you have to move the nuc away or seal it up and put it in a cool dry place for three days to get the bees to stay. There is a nice little video on you tube about making a nuc. It is really easy to do. Make sure your friend has a queen on hand next time, or start the nuc early enough so they can raise a queen. I hope they survive. If you have any doubts, pinch out that sorry queen and recombine them with another hive and start over next spring with your newly gained knowledge.

Cindi · October 14, 2007, 02:06:36 PM

Old Timer. You tell it like it is. Undisputable facts. I think that you provide excellent posts that are giving excellent notions. I love to read your posts, by the way. Have a wonderful and excellent day and life. Cindi

Next year I am going to be making nucs, hopefully lots of nucs.....I have been in the year of buildup with my colonies. Next year it is colony expansion and honey. I lost all 9 of my colonies last year to the varroa destructor mite (and swarming too), one colony was babied through and survived and it is my strong, strong Carniolan colony of bees. I have made a cut down split with it and caught a swarm it cast. This colony will be my queen selection colony for next year. The Italians were great brood rearers, but didn't gather an awful lot of nectar. Those are not my choice for queen rearing. The Carniolans were premier with brood and nectar work, not a doubt in my mind.

I will make some Italian nucs, maybe they will crossbreed with Carniolan, then I think that I will have the best of the best. But lots of work with studying must be done on my part to be totally proficient with bee breeding. I have been involved now in beekeeping for over 2 years, lots of studying, courses, hands on experience and feeling pretty confident, with the help of this forum that I can go into next year being a pretty good beekeeper. Yeah!!!! Loving this life.

Old Timer · October 16, 2007, 06:40:01 PM

>Old Timer. You tell it like it is. Undisputable facts. I think that you provide excellent posts that are giving excellent notions. I love to read your posts, by the way. Have a wonderful and excellent day and life. Cindi

thanks cindi. i do feel to sometimes be "overbearing" in my posts. i just know that if i went through life "sugar coating" everything that people would not respond as they do otherwise. hopefully by being overbearing in this post, dlmarti will remeber what i wrote more than anything next time he makes a nuc and won't have the problem again. if i have a problem, my thinking is, "what could i have done to prevent this?" instead of, "what do i do now?" this post reminds me of that old adage, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". do it right when you do it and you won't have to worry about it later. by the way, i enjoy your "ramblings" too and i think it is great you are learning all you can now to be a better beekeeper in the future.

Cindi · October 16, 2007, 09:17:12 PM

Old Timer. Thank you for the kind words. I am somewhat like you in my expression of things to people. Sometimes I can be rather harsh with words to people, but I think that being stern and forthright is the only way to go. When I do things wrongly, I want to be told, straight and to the point. Don't bleep foot around me, tell it like it is. Sugar dustin' ain't a good thing and no one learns by lessons that can be wishy washy, uh uh. Have a wonderful and great day in this beautiful place on our earth. Cindi

dlmarti · March 16, 2008, 03:33:28 PM

Update on the trouble:

I monitored the Hive through the winter, when ever there was a warm day I checked things out. The colony was extremely small, only a handful of bees.

About three weeks ago we had a 45 degree day, and I saw a lot of bees coming an going. It was still too chilly to go digging into the boxes.

Finally had a 60 degree day yesterday and I opened things up:
1. Hive is packed with bees, wall to wall.
2. 8 full frames of capped brood, only the very edges of the corners had uncapped brood. Both outer frames were full of honey. The upper box is just starting to get drawn out.

So in total: 8 frames of capped brood, 2 frames of honey, 10 undrawn frames.

I have syrup on them now, plus pollen packets, so that should expedite the filling of the other 10 frames. She certainly has the workers to do the job for her.

The bees were a little more aggressive then I'm used to, I guess no more working the hives without a veil.

I've never seen that much capped brood in one place, with a full box of bees now, the population is going to go through the room in the next day or so.

Cindi · March 16, 2008, 11:34:35 PM

Dimarti, I wonder if your bees are Carniolan. That is one of the main characteristics of this breed of bees. Very small winter cluster, uses very little food, stays tight in their cluster, can withstand colder temperatures than other breeds, extremely fast spring build up. Downside, they build up so fast that they have a propensity for swarming.

Your colony was overwintered in that tiny cluster, the size of a baseball eh? Surely they are magnificent breeders and fast builder uppers, yeah!!! Good, you must feel very happy and relieved that things are doing so well, excellent, now you go and have a wonderful and beautiful day, many more of those to come. Cindi

dlmarti · March 17, 2008, 11:56:26 AM

The mother of the queen was an Italian, I have no idea who she bread with.

The area is a mixture of hobby apiaries, so it could be anything.

Whatever the genetics, it does look promising.

They are propolising more than the other hives, the build up is very fast.

I do wish they were calmer on the comb, and a little less aggressive, but from my limited experience I know that the other two hives are NOT the norm for normal bees. The other two hives completely ignore me, and can easily be worked without a veil.

Brian D. Bray · March 17, 2008, 09:30:53 PM

Cross breeding of sub species can result in cranky bees. Still as long as they don't gang up on you, what's the worry. If it was the 1st time you opened them this year I would expect them to be cranky, they should calm down after a few more look-sees.

It is unclear to me, even after looking back over the previous postings whether the hive was over wintered with an empty 10 frame super on top. If it was, that could be a reason for such a small cluster. Never overwinter with an empty box (with or without frames) unless it is used for feeding. The hive should draw out the upper box now in very short order. Once all those 8 frames of brood hatches you'll have 2 full boxes of bees and in need of more space so super with a 3rd box in about 10 days even if the current super is only half drawn as you'll need addition space for the next round of hatched brood to stand on. If you're using slatted racks the timing of supering won't be quite as critical.