Emergency queen cells

Greg Peck · May 24, 2008, 01:08:53 PM

I have a hive that is doing really good has almost 2 supers full of honey already this year. last week I attempted to mark the queen because they were making a lot of swarm cells and I wanted to be able to know is she took off or not. In marking her I got a little bit of paint on her wing. Today when I check the hive I found a frame that had probably 10 emergency queen cells on it. There are also several swarm cells. I found her and she is still laying maybe not as much as usually but still going.

Question is would marking her (and her wing) be enough for the bees to set up emergency queen cells? Second question is, if one of the swarm cells were to emerge sooner then the emergency cells will the bees get rid of the original queen and kill off the emergency cells.

So should I get rid of the swarm cells and leave the emergency cells? Get rid of all the cells and try to keep the original queen?

I have taken 8 frames from this hive (4 frames 2 different times) getting rid of swarm cells and trying to prevent swarming. But they are still pretty strong and trying to swarm.

mark · May 24, 2008, 04:59:58 PM

once their course is set it's difficult to change their minds. i would make them THINK they swarmed and do a split which can be joined later if desired. swarm cells are to be preferred over emergency cells. i view queen cells as a resource and not a problem and personally hate destroying them. it's all a matter of how much equipment you have at the time. nucs can be started and used to boost other hives or combined into larger hives. wouldn't it be nice to evaluate 5 or 6 queens instead of just settling on the one. original queen will leave with the swarm. not all queen cells are always destroyed by the first emerger or there would not be a 2nd and 3rd swarms. injured and damaged queens are replaced sooner but unless the paint affected her pheremone levels i doubt that your painting instigated their actions.

doak · May 24, 2008, 05:53:12 PM

Over crowding is the first thing to cause building of swarm cells.

I had a colony a few years back that swarmed their selves out after splitting.
soft ball size swarms. Finally took a frame of capped brood and a frame with eggs from another colony and saved what was left.
it came back and did well. Could just consider it a queen less nuc. till I added the other two frames.
doak

Greg Peck · May 24, 2008, 07:28:30 PM

I have basically split it 2 times this year but I probably should have taken the original queen with one of the splits. I put frames of foundation in place of the frames I took out that had the swarm cells on them and the other frames needed for the nuc.

So split them again and leave the swarm cells in the original hive and put the original queen with the new hive. Should I kill the emergency cells or keep them with the original queen?

Thanks for the input.

Michael Bush · May 24, 2008, 09:33:04 PM

I wouldn't destroy the queen cells. The bees may know something you don't. Let's assume they do raise a new queen. Odds are she will mate and start laying along with the current one. A virgin queen is only looking for virgin queens to kill. A laying queen isn't looking for anyone to kill. On the other hand if you think they are swarming (as evidenced by LOT'S of bees, backfilling the brood nest and most of the queen cells on the bottom) then I'd spit them.

JP · May 24, 2008, 09:55:37 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on May 24, 2008, 09:33:04 PM
I wouldn't destroy the queen cells. The bees may know something you don't. Let's assume they do raise a new queen. Odds are she will mate and start laying along with the current one. A virgin queen is only looking for virgin queens to kill. A laying queen isn't looking for anyone to kill. On the other hand if you think they are swarming (as evidenced by LOT'S of bees, backfilling the brood nest and most of the queen cells on the bottom) then I'd spit them.

Hey Michael, is that very effective? Spitting on them? I have lots of spit, just not as many hive bodies. :-D

...JP

Brian D. Bray · May 24, 2008, 11:02:54 PM

A common mistake when making splits is leaving the old queen in the old hive. It reduces the number of bees temporarily but as long as the old queen remains in the original hive they bees, in effect, haven't swarmed yet. To mimic a swarm it is necessary to take the queen to the split and leave the cells in the original hive.

Scott Derrick · May 24, 2008, 11:19:52 PM

Quote from: Brian D. Bray on May 24, 2008, 11:02:54 PM
A common mistake when making splits is leaving the old queen in the old hive. It reduces the number of bees temporarily but as long as the old queen remains in the original hive they bees, in effect, haven't swarmed yet. To mimic a swarm it is necessary to take the queen to the split and leave the cells in the original hive.

Brian,

I appreciate that comment. I've never heard that but it makes complete sense. Thank You!

Michael Bush · May 25, 2008, 11:43:52 AM

>A common mistake when making splits

Actually a common mistake when making splits is to misspell it...

JP · May 25, 2008, 12:06:19 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on May 25, 2008, 11:43:52 AM
>A common mistake when making splits

Actually a common mistake when making splits is to misspell it...

;) :-D

...JP

Cindi · May 26, 2008, 10:35:19 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on May 25, 2008, 11:43:52 AM
>A common mistake when making splits

Actually a common mistake when making splits is to misspell it...

Michael, I think I detect a hidddden sense of humour here, hee, hee!!! Who mis-pells around here, beautiful and most wonderful day, get along to groovin' on this groovy life we live. Cindi

Greg Peck · May 26, 2008, 11:14:41 AM

Thanks everyone. I posted a response to MBs original post but it did not show up I noted today.

The hive is not back filled, there are not a huge amount of bees. There are i think 3 queen cells at the bottom of the frames with larva in them. and there are the emergency cells with larva in them.

I have basically split this hive 2 times this year.
Which option should I do?

1. Being that the emergency cells are present should I leave all the Q cells in place, and let things run there course, Maybe they will not swarm because they want a queen as evidenced by the emergency cells.

2. Cut off the swarm cells and leave everything else in place.

3. Split again taking the old queen with the split.

4. Spit on the hive and hope for the best. lol

Thanks again

Michael Bush · May 26, 2008, 11:42:28 AM

>2. Cut off the swarm cells and leave everything else in place.

And then they will swarm and the hive will be queenless.

>3. Split again taking the old queen with the split.

That should work.

>4. Spit on the hive and hope for the best. lol

That usually works as well.

But you're assuming they are swarming. Perhaps they are. I don't know, but they might just be superseding the current queen.

Greg Peck · May 26, 2008, 12:03:25 PM

So just because they have "swarm cells" on the bottom of frames does not necessarily mean that they are going to swarm? Maybe they had some cups there, needed a new queen so they used them? Do bees move eggs/larva around like grafting or does the queen have to lay in a cup for them to use it.

Michael Bush · May 26, 2008, 10:26:34 PM

Where the queen cells are is only one clue in the puzzle of what a queen cell is for. If I only find one or two queen cells down low, and the hive is not packed with bees, I'd assume a supersedure or an emergency queen, despite their location. If I found dozens of cells up high and the hive is overflowing with bees, I'd assume they are swarming despite their location.

I consider location one clue, not the only clue.