Misuse of foundationless frames

[Kris^]

Well, here's something I learned today . . .

In the past I've used foundationless frames and have been pretty satisfied with the results.  So when I put second deeps on four of my first-year hives, I filled them with foundationless frames.  Today when I went in to check them, they'd drawn lots of comb, alright -- burr comb, cross comb, all kinds of a mess in there.  I had planned to just spend 15 minutes or so putting some supers on the hives, and ended up spending an hour cutting comb out of the boxes and straightening it all out as best I could.  In the 90+ degrees heat wave we're having.  Got a sting on my arm through my suit, too.  I wasn't happy.

What happened, I surmise, is that I didn't give the bees enough guidance.  The foundationless frames I used had been made up last year, and most of them lost the starter strip along the top.  I thought it would be enough to put two or three frames of foundation or partially drawn comb in there for them, but I was wrong.  So they drew it where they wanted it.  Sure, some of the comb was drawn decently, but only about a third of it.  Much of it was either off center from the frame or running perpendicular across several frames.  I ended up checkerboarding the deeps with fully drawn comb from the bottom and what I salvaged from the foundationless frames.  I won't be making the same mistake when I add to my second batch of hives. 

A short cut isn't an easier way to do something.  If it was, it would be the Way.

-- Kris 

[Moonshae]

I've never tried foundationless. I cut foundation into quarters as starter strips, and have no problems...but foundationless does not appeal to me, yet. Once I have a substantial amount of drawn comb, and some to spare, I can see checkerboarding foundationless with drawn combs. But I've been expanding too fast for that so far.

[NWIN Beekeeper]

[I didn't give the bees enough guidance. ]

BINGO!
It is best when used between already drawn comb - pref. worker brood combs.
Results will also be best in the center most position - where most worker comb is drawn.

Using the edge frame positions may result in more drone comb.

You realize your mistakes and you are asking questions to learn.
Your next attemp should yield you much better results. Good luck!

[Ross]

Simple answer is the center guide on the top bar.  One drawn comb in the center of the box helps too, but mostly it's just a matter of having the guides on the top bar, popcicle sticks, wood strips, cut a bevel, or wax starter strips, but something.  You do not have to place every frame between drawn frames.  In fact, if that is what you are going to do, you don't need frame guides.

[annette]

Well I may be in for a surprise today. I started my new package on all foundationless (I do use starter strips) with a few full plastic frames for guidance. They did a wonderful job of drawing out the frames straight. Because I left for vacation for a week, I simply placed a new super on top with all foundationless (I do use the starter strips though) on top. I will see today what they have done up there.

Annette

[HAB]

How did that vacation go?

[annette]

Fabulous, but glad to be home. Will post more about my vacation in another post. Look for it.

Thanks for asking

have a great day
Annette

[JordanM]

I have mine on popsicle starter strips. They are building a little off center but they are building parelle to the frames. And i can get the frames out with out busting any cells open so i leave it how it is.

[Kris^]

Yes, I'm convince that the problem arose because of the lack of starter strips and too many empty frames positioned next to each other.  I hope I've resolved the problem; I destroyed a lot a bees' effort cleaning up the mess.   :'(

-- Kris

[Michael Bush]

Every frame needs some kind of guide, whether it's drawn brood comb on each side of it or at starter strip or popscicles sticks.  Now you see why I prefer the popscicle sticks or a triangular guide over the starter strips.  Wax strips will fall out.  Glued in popscicle sticks won't.  A bevel cut on the top bar won't.

It also helps, if you have one, to put a full drawn comb in a new box, usually by moving it up from the box below, so there is one comb running the right direction.