Whats up with this?

gguidester · July 06, 2008, 11:26:29 PM

Had not been down into the bottom brood box for a while. Hive had started to fall behind another of package bees installed around the first week of May. Other hive has one super full and I need to get another on. This hive was slower filling the second deep(brood box) by about a week. I did put a super about 10 days ago but had no activity after a week so removed the QE 4 or 5 days ago. Yesterday no activity upstairs, so went looking deeper. Top brood box had bees but not as many as the hive next door.
Most of the once capped brood comb was full of nectar. No sign of eggs or larvae and no capped brood left. Went to the bottom box. Almost the same story. Only a very small area on one or two frames of what could still be capped brood. Also noticed quite a few drones. Did find what looked like numerous queen cells. two or more were open on the end. At least a couple were opened on the side. No eggs, no queen that we found, no brood. Help! Do I need to requeen right away or give it some time. My feeling is we were looking at the last of the brood which hasn't emerged and that is all the young we have left. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance for all your help. I read this forum daily and treasure the info.!!

Bill W. · July 06, 2008, 11:54:56 PM

Sounds like they may have swarmed. Could be you have a new or virgin queen. Could be they are still waiting on a new queen.

tandemrx · July 07, 2008, 10:44:24 AM

I am interested in replies as well - I was with gguidester at his inspection.

2 parts to my question:

1. How obvious is it when a hive has swarmed? I thought he still had a pretty solid bee population in that hive, so I thought maybe swarm was less likely than just a lost or nonproducing queen, but I don't know how you assess this.

2. Very interested in the discussion of how you decide whether to let nature takes its course with requeening vs. installing a new queen yourself pronto. Especially in the face of not seeing any larvae/eggs and minimal capped brood available to maintain population.

He clearly had a bundle of queen cells, some of which had opened cleanly at the bottom. We didn't see a queen, but I have to say that we were mostly scanning for eggs and larvae as I don't think either of us expected that there wasn't a queen there since his early spring activity was good in that hive. So we didn't really scan well for a queen and we are both new enough to this that finding a queen is tough for us anyway.

Cindi · July 07, 2008, 11:33:45 AM

Gguidester and tandemrx. The colony has very obviously swarmed. Prior to the swarm issuing, the queen is fed less to reduce her weight for the swarm flight and this causes her to slow down in egg laying. THe bees will also backfill the brood nest so the queen has no room to lay.

The opened at the bottom queen cells are ones that have emerged, the ripped open at the side are the queen cells that the emerged queen/s (most likely one queen) has ripped open and killed that queen within. The original queen is gone with the swarm. Sometimes there are after swarms too, in which a virgin queen leaves with many more members of the colony.

You could not find the queen when you looked. This is very normal. A newly emerged virgin queen can sometimes be not much bigger than the actual worker itself. It is after she has taken her nuptual flight and readies for laying that her abdomen enlarges, as she is full of sperm from the drones, of which there can be many that mate with her on one or more mating flights. The bees also pay very little attention to a virgin queen, it is after her nuptual flight that she is the most important gal in the colony.

You will hear more comments, but I hope that what I have said may have cleared things up a little bit for you. Have that most beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi

sc-bee · July 07, 2008, 11:35:36 AM

A virgin queen is hard to spot---at least for me :-D! Should be laying in a couple weeks after hatching. If you requeen and have a virgin there you may loose the new one. It is for sure you will lose one or the other.

>Most of the once capped brood comb was full of nectar.

In a strong hive, this is a good sign of swarming and of course the open queen cells also! This is called backfilling. They do this in preparation of swarming to cut the queen back in size and also limit the amount of brood they (the parent colony) have to sustain after the swarm has issued.

sc-bee · July 07, 2008, 11:36:33 AM

Cyndi types faster than I do :-D!

Cindi · July 07, 2008, 11:51:44 AM

Sc-bee, yep, yep, I can type pretty much as fast as anyone can talk, now ya'll with that southern drawl, that makes it even easier to type faster than one can speak, hee, hee. Typing with the speed of light.....beautiful and most wonderful day, lovin' this great life we all live and share. Cindi (with two "i"s, hee, hee!!!)

sc-bee · July 07, 2008, 12:08:53 PM

Thank you Miss Cindi :) ;) ! Of course with a southern DRAWL :-D.

Brian D. Bray · July 07, 2008, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: tandemrx on July 07, 2008, 10:44:24 AM
I am interested in replies as well - I was with gguidester at his inspection.

2 parts to my question:

1. How obvious is it when a hive has swarmed? I thought he still had a pretty solid bee population in that hive, so I thought maybe swarm was less likely than just a lost or nonproducing queen, but I don't know how you assess this.

Backfilling is a dead give away along with the absence of larvae or eggs. When the only brood that can be found is capped (puape stage) and nectar backfilled into brood area there should also be some queen cells, eith capped or opened from hatching. A queen will go on a mating flight sometime after day 5 so signs of eggs or larvae won't show up until day 10-14 at the earliest. A sudden drop in population, though logical, is not always noticed as the old queen usually ceases egg laying after the queen cells are developed and the hatching bees repopulate the hive quickly. It is the absence of new brood production that is noticed, which is often, mistakenly, diagnosed as being queenless. Bees can be very good at hiding queen cells, especially if they've been removed by the beekeeper in the past.

Quote2. Very interested in the discussion of how you decide whether to let nature takes its course with requeening vs. installing a new queen yourself pronto. Especially in the face of not seeing any larvae/eggs and minimal capped brood available to maintain population.

When this post swarm condition is noticed the new queen has either not mated or started laying eggs yet. From the time the absence of the old queen is noted, a new queen ordered and installed in the hive it is likely the new queen has mated and started to lay or will start to lay shortly. If there is a good diversity of drones a home grown queen is just as good, if not better, than anything the beekeeper could buy. The exception is a single, isolated hive that has inbred for a few generations. The bees can then act as bad (or worse) than AHB.

If brood population is a concern then inserting a frame or 2 from another hive cures the population drop that could occur from the delay of a new queen mating and beginning to lay.

QuoteHe clearly had a bundle of queen cells, some of which had opened cleanly at the bottom. We didn't see a queen, but I have to say that we were mostly scanning for eggs and larvae as I don't think either of us expected that there wasn't a queen there since his early spring activity was good in that hive. So we didn't really scan well for a queen and we are both new enough to this that finding a queen is tough for us anyway.

Virgin queens are quite flighty and nervous acting. They also don't have attendents surrounding them. It is therefore very easy for even an experienced beekeeper to miss a virgin queen as she looks very much like a worker until she has been laying for a while. Even new laying queens will appear "skinny" when they first start to lay.

purvisgs · July 07, 2008, 03:35:55 PM

A few thoughts-

I don't think that other posters are correct to jump to conclusions that the hive in question swarmed-

were the queen cells you found on the face of the frame or the bottom?
open queen cells on the bottom of a brood frame, and yes, I would assume that the hive probably swarmed.

however, open queen cells on the face of the frame more likely would mean that the hive superseded its queen, and you have the whole population still, either way probably a virgin queen running around somewhere...

You say that you found some queen cells that were open- this indicates that a virgin emerged, but did you find queen cells that were still capped? This would indicated time wise to me that the virgin queen just emerged, you probably have ~2 weeks until she is mated and starts laying

Also, in my experience, although backfilling the brood nest does occur after a swarm takes off, this IS NOT a sure sign of swarming... any time the hive is left without a laying queen (especially during a nectar flow) they will start backfilling. they will also start backfilling certain times of year, and for other reasons as well.

if you insist on requeening with a bought queen, you will probably have to track down and pinch the virgin(possibly virgins)- not easy as others have suggested. Otherwise wait 2 weeks and look for eggs.

good luck!