Pesticides Question

[bassman1977]

Next year, I will be facing a situation that I haven't had to deal with yet.  A guy that lives across town owns an orchard and asked if I could put bees there.  I only agreed to do it if I could put them there on a permanent basis as moving bees around only for pollination isn't my thing.  Wednesday, I went to check out the area and look for a good place for the hives.  Everything checked out and I believe the location will be really nice since there is a lot of other plants around that the bees will use as a food source throughout the seasons.  As I interrogated the grower, we discussed his use of pesticides on the fruit.  He uses various chemicals every 10 days.  He mentioned Kaptan, phosphorus, and few others that I can't think of at the moment (he's going to get me a full list this week).  What I am thinking of doing is closing them up the night prior to him spraying, ensuring that the bees have proper ventilation etc.  He said he sprays in the mid to late afternoon.  If I go back the day he sprays and open the hives back up in the evening when the bees aren't flying, would this be too early or would the pesticides still have a potential to harm the bees in the morning when they go out to forage again?  Also, I am going to have screened bottoms on these hives.  Aside from that for ventilation, I was going to use something like window screen to keep the entrance closed up.  What about the top of the hive?  What, if anything, is good to use to seal up the top of the hive so they aren't getting out?  Any other suggestions?

[JP]

Sprays every ten days?


...JP

[bassman1977]

That's what he says.

[Irwin]

I would not take my bees there to much spray the drift and the smell can go any where look how dust gets in to your house.

[topbarslo]

Big NO NO if he sprays in the middle of the day. If he sprays every ten days you be sure something will get into flower and that means dead bees....

[bassman1977]

Big NO NO if he sprays in the middle of the day. If he sprays every ten days you be sure something will get into flower and that means dead bees....

He won't be spraying when the flowers are on.  Only after the petals fall off.  And like I mentioned, the bees will be closed up when he's doing the spraying.  I would open them back up at night when they weren't flying.  From what I understand, the pesticides neutralize after a few hours (especially if there is sun and dew) so I was thinking that they should be ok by that point.

[Kathyp]

i would take the bees for pollination and then take them home.  what you propose will be just as much work as moving them twice.  after the bloom, there is no real benefit to leaving them, and much risk.

[bassman1977]

after the bloom, there is no real benefit to leaving them

Actually my reason for leaving them is to expand my bee yards.  I am making a push to get up into the hundreds as far as hive counts go and will need additional yards the more I get.  Going there every 10 days is not a big deal because the place is 5 or 6 miles from my place.  I can also use the time when I go out there for inspections and other necessary tasks.

[Kathyp]

makes sense, but as you get more hives you will increase your work load. seems to me that adding the additional work of closing up hives every 10 days, may not make sense in the long run.  might work for you.  something you'll have to evaluate....if you have no contract, you can adjust as you go.

[bassman1977]

if you have no contract, you can adjust as you go.

Yeah, there's no contract.  Also, I can monitor what's going on fairly efficiently.  If I see any problems, there's a good chance I can pull the hives in time.  I hope...  :-\

I found this article of interest.  http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2161.html

A few paragraphs of particular importance are:

"Fungicides seem to cause little trouble for bees. Captan at field dosages has caused brood damage. "

"Time of Application. Ideally, pesticides should be applied when there is no wind and when bees are not visiting plants in the area. The time and intensity of bee visitation to a given crop depends on the abundance and attractiveness of the bloom. For example, apple trees or clover in bloom may be attractive to bees all day while cucumbers and corn are usually attractive in the morning and early afternoon hours. In general, evening or early night applications are the least harmful to bees."

The later paragraph goes back to my question of whether or not the treatment used will be neutralized enough come morning.

[BenC]

As an ex-orchardist, I have to say this sounds like a potentially bad idea.  Does this grower have a pesticide license?  Can you obtain a copy of pesticide application records (it's more than just a list of chemical names) from previous seasons?  Generally, spraying fruit trees mid-afternoon is not a good practice for numerous reasons.  When you get the list of chemicals please post it here.

[WhipCityBeeMan]

I also would like to see the list of chems.  I have used Kaptan and I don't think it will cause a big problem for the bees however it seems like spraying every 10 days is a lot.  How long does that frequency keep up for?  After you have the list I would definitely do my homework in researching the pesticides he listed and also contact my local extension service and talk to an entomologist. 

There is no point in increasing your number of hives if you are putting some in jeopardy in order to make more room. 

By the way...is this an apple orchard?

[BenC]

Ideally, trapping or scouting is done to monitor pest or pathogen levels and when an economic injury threshold is reached one uses various control methods, spraying is often the chosen (most effective) method.  In a commercial orchard setting, spray applications to alternate row middles every 10 days is sometimes done as opposed to a full cover spray half as often.  It's a way of stretching the effectiveness of the chemical while still adhering to allowable application rates.

[dhood]

I had a guy that wanted bees for pumpkin pollination this year, he sprayed every few days late in the afternoon. But I had the bees back about 30 yd. or so, away from the spray area. Wasn't sure if I'd even have bees in there when I came to get them, but they did well. Saw no evidence of pesticide poisoning, but they did position themselves in the top box, and had basically abandoned the bottom box. Maybe they did that to keep the spray from drifting in? I wouldn't put bees there unless you can afford the loss, if you do lose them.

[Michael Bush]

I only put bees in orchards for a fee and only during the bloom and immediately remove them after the bloom is done.  The pesticides in an orchard are a very bad thing for bees.

[bassman1977]

By the way...is this an apple orchard?

Mostly.  He also has peaches, pears, and if I remember right, choke cherries and crab apples as pollinators.  He's supposed to be planting more trees in the spring and also supposed to be putting in various berries.  He mentioned raspberries, blueberries...there was something else too, but I forget what is now.

It might be kind of tricky doing the pollination with the various varieties.  The peaches are supposed to come in first and then a couple weeks later, the apples get started.  So I guess he'll be spraying the peaches once the apples are in bloom.

When you get the list of chemicals please post it here.

I will.  I'd like more of your thoughts on this since you have orchard experience.

But I had the bees back about 30 yd. or so, away from the spray area.

That sounds close.  When I post the list, I'd be interested to hear if anything is on there that the pumpkin grower used.

[BenC]

Bassman- any news on this possible yard/arrangement?

[BjornBee]

Any, and I mean ANY farmer that has stayed on top of his education with pesticide credits, understands that honey bees are but a small part of what spray can potentially kill. The farmers I deal with, ALL spray early morning, or very late evening (*were talking dark outside). This is for a couple reasons to include...

1) Less wind at these times. Even a small breeze will diminish the effectiveness of the spray being applied. Spraying in the late evening ensures a good coverage with no drift as any winds die down.

2) Less than 50% of pollination of any normal sized farm comes from honey bees. Sure, where nothing else exists, such as mega operations, bees will pollinate more, but will also mean the bees will only have that crop to work. But for smaller operations, such as those around Danville Pa., 50% or more of the pollination is from flies, wasps, bumblebees, yellow jackets, etc. Your bees will not only pollinate the fruit tress but will go elsewhere as the local floral sources allows. But the local area also allows for other beneficial pollinators to take part in pollinating the farm. And any farmer who gives a crap about the environment, knows that even if you move the bees off the farm, he should not be spraying ANYTHING in the middle of the afternoon. And for those that do, they may not be killing honey bees, but they are killing off other beneficial insects.

I would stay clear of ANY farmer who sprays during daylight hours.

And as I said many times before, I also do not pollinate or have bees anywhere near fruit farms without a pollination fee. Farms that spray, mow, and do whatever else they do, are not the most productive sites for honey. Too many other more productive, and healthier environments, to keep bees, other than farms that spray chems.

[bassman1977]

Bassman- any news on this possible yard/arrangement?

No I need to get in touch with him yet.  Been busy.