Reversing Supers

hollybees · April 21, 2009, 08:56:56 PM

Hello,
This is one of many subjects that have many conflicting opinions.
New beekeepers learning the trade or hobbyists who want to do things correctly as you know need basic direction.
Those of us who have committed ourselves to doing this, want to do it right!
If you will, please explain your opinion or give your advice as a mentor telling a start-up beekeeper what he or she should do.
The diverse information available in this forum is wonderful, the experience level of its members is invaluable.
However, and I mean no disrespect to anyone...can be very confusing!

Thank You all,
Paul

doak · April 21, 2009, 09:27:06 PM

A bee keeper in one part of the country cannot and does not have the
same menu as one in another part of the country.

As for reversing brood chambers, IMHO, I don't think there is any pros and/or cons in this action.
One has to determine what is best for his/her bees and his/her self.
I will not vote on the issue but will say this.
If it needs to be done,( and remember, it can be done for different reasons)
One should be aware of why, and when to do so.

#1, is it for swarm prevention?,
#2 is it to keep from adding a third brood chamber?,
#3 is it for, etc?
I reverse when needed and only one time in the spring.
The main reason I reverse is to have the queen in the bottom super when the flow starts.
This is hopefully to keep her out of the honey super until the flow is over.

If you are in a location where they build up really good in time ahead of the flow and want to add the third brood chamber, and they have that one full by the time the flow starts and you don't want to split, then you could have a hive that would produce a bumper crop of honey.

When it is advisable to have a mentor, one should try to find some one in their location.
I am in no way saying one cannot get good basic information from some one else across the country.
my story and I am sticking to it. :)doak

mherndon · April 21, 2009, 09:29:46 PM

This is my first Spring and I did reverse. Seemed to really help with buildup. Just made sure bottom box was empty. Came back in one week and it was full of brood. Waited about 2-3 weeks and started over. Boxes were full of bees and made a good number to split. That was my goal this year. Not sure I would need to reverse as much unless trying to expand hive numbers. If you can prevent swarming, sure seems to get the max number of bees to work. Would work better with three medium boxes or two deeps. I had 1 deep and one medium, but was able to get another deep and medium all brood by April 1st. It is a lot of work. :?

Mark

Kathyp · April 21, 2009, 09:32:22 PM

whenever i am told to do or not do something, i ask myself 'why'. reversing supers as a general rule serves no purpose. it disrupts the hive. while i am not into totally natural or organic beekeeping, i do try to keep in mind what a hive would do if left on it's own. of all the things they might do, reversing themselves is not on the list :-).

hive on their own have a structure. brood up the middle. honey around the sides and top. when you reverse the boxes, you break the order. if you need to get bees to move up or down in boxes, it can usually be accomplished by moving a couple of frames of brood.

now....i just reversed boxes. moving frames did not work in one hive and they were jammed in one box refusing to move. :evil: it was a last ditch effort because i found swarm cells and wanted to prevent swarming. i let you know if it worked.

Michael Bush · April 21, 2009, 10:28:15 PM

I don't know anyone who reverses supers. Some reverse brood boxes. I don't.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopswitching

WOB419 · April 21, 2009, 10:36:35 PM

I have never reversed my brood boxes (except when coming out of winter) but last week I found all of the brood in the top box and not much of anything in the bottom box. I want to prevent a swarm and since bees always move up I thought why waste the bottom box and let the bees get over crowded, so I reversed the box and took the opportunity to rotate out a few frames of old comb and brought in some new foundation for them the draw out.

The fun thing about beekeeping is all of the experiments that you can try...We'll see what happens.

Brian D. Bray · April 22, 2009, 02:29:00 AM

Quote from: hollybees on April 21, 2009, 08:56:56 PM
Hello,
This is one of many subjects that have many conflicting opinions.
New beekeepers learning the trade or hobbyists who want to do things correctly as you know need basic direction.
Those of us who have committed ourselves to doing this, want to do it right!
If you will, please explain your opinion or give your advice as a mentor telling a start-up beekeeper what he or she should do.
The diverse information available in this forum is wonderful, the experience level of its members is invaluable.
However, and I mean no disrespect to anyone...can be very confusing!

Thank You all,
Paul

I can answer your questions from both views, the student and the mentor as I've been both at one time or another.

First, there are too many of those "Because I said so!" practices that continue to plague beekeeping even when experience and experimentation shows it has no discernable value. Switching brood boxes is one of those, removing queen cells is another.

As a student you need to know and understand why something should be done. If you're not asking why, you're not being a successful student.

The mentor should be willing to answer your questions, even if they don't agree with his own practices or beliefs. Answering the why questions makes a good beekeeper a better beekeeper.

The problem I had with the orginal version of Beekeeping for Dummies was that it was approached too much from the "Because I said so!" type of beekeeping. I haven't seen the newest edition yet so I don't know if the same fault is continued.

I have, more than once, been asked on this forum why I answered a newbies question when the answer was bad beekeeping. I have replied, and will continue to maintain, that answering the question was important because it was asked and by giving the why answer they understood why something was not a good practice.

Be inquisitive, asked every question that pops into your mind, when it pops into your mind. If the mentor say's, "We'll get into that later," make sure he's reminded later.

doak · April 22, 2009, 03:01:37 PM

I have said before and will say it again.
Try different things that have been suggested that have been tried.
Then use what ever method works best for you and your bees in your area.
I reverse some hives some time. I "will" not "try" to reverse medium brood chambers.
I will not reverse a deep if any amount of young brood is in the bottom.
I dis agree with the re arranging of frames, except the two out side frames, I will reverse these if need be.
I use queen ex-cluders, sometime. I always make sure I have an entrance above the x-cluder.
:)doak

TwT · April 22, 2009, 10:05:49 PM

I voted yes but might have misunderstood your meaning, when I have a super or supers on a hive I dont change then around, but when I go check and see super that is about filled and I want to add a new super with foundation I will put it under the highest filled super, they seem to work the new one faster from what I seen, thats what I thought you was talking about reversing supers.

hollybees · April 24, 2009, 12:26:52 AM

Hello,
Thanks for all your replies to the poll, I must apologize for the confusion I did mean reversing "hive bodies".
In all the books I use for reference.
Beekeeping for Dummies, Keeping Bees, The Hive and the Honeybee & The Backyard Beekeeper.

They suggest reversing or switching hive bodies in the spring because the bees only move up and so on.
Along with that they suggest treating the hives with the standard preventive chemical and antibiotic treatments.
I have not treated and don't intend to unless I can see it has to be done.

Maybe I need new books!
I'm really liking the way folks on this forum are trying and perfecting "new" standards.

Back the the hive body question.......
If you overwintered with say 3 mediums and in the spring the brood is at the top do you remove the body below or leave it?
How do the bees manage the situation?

I use all mediums and in the fall had 3 brood boxes the whole hive was just packed w/bees.
There were so many they poured over the edges and it was hard reassemble the hive after inspecting.
What I ended up with going into winter was 3 hive bodies and 2 full honey supers so that's what I overwintered with.

I did a inspection last weekend because the weather was perfect.
They had nice capped brood in the top super, next one down was mostly new eggs and uncapped larvae.
I did not want to have 5 supers I moved the top 2 hive bodies to the bottom and reversed them.
I put whatever frames w/pollen I could find in the super above them and added a 4th w/drawn comb.
The whole time it did "NOT" feel right to me moving there arrangement around.
Yeah, like I know whats better for them...Ha!

Even with the incorrect title the responses were awesome and shows that reversing is not done as a standard as I thought.
Thanks to all....sorry this was so long.

Paul

doak · April 24, 2009, 01:06:27 AM

I think there is a little misunderstanding On ( the bees all ways tend to move up.)
I have found some will tend to move back down and start over. That is why I do not reverse every colony. That is also the reason I do not use a queen ex cluder on all my colonies.
When I do use it I use one that has been cut down. about 2 inches on the ends and enough to allow
the out side space access between the two out side frames on each side.
I stick to ( do what works best) for you and your bees.

I don't find it necessary, "when I do reverse", to do it more than once, very seldom twice.
If they are that strong and fast, I'll just add another brood box and get a ton of supers ready.
doak

Ross · April 24, 2009, 01:13:25 AM

In nature, bees seldom move up. Comb is attached at the top and they build downward. Nobody puts a super on top in a hollow tree or wall cavity.

Brian D. Bray · April 24, 2009, 01:21:10 AM

Quote from: hollybees on April 24, 2009, 12:26:52 AM
Back the the hive body question.......
If you overwintered with say 3 mediums and in the spring the brood is at the top do you remove the body below or leave it?
How do the bees manage the situation?

I use all mediums and in the fall had 3 brood boxes the whole hive was just packed w/bees.
There were so many they poured over the edges and it was hard reassemble the hive after inspecting.
What I ended up with going into winter was 3 hive bodies and 2 full honey supers so that's what I overwintered with.

Paul

When it comes to reversing brood boxes or where in a stack of boxes the brood chamber is remeber this: Bees hate empty spaces. They will fill that space as soon as they have enough bees.

If you have an established hive that overwintered it is much more important to make sure the entrance is open in the spring than switching boxes around. It does not matter which box of however many the brood is in in early spring. If you have an overwintered hive of 3-4 medium boxes and the brood is in the second box upon early inspections chances are that all of the boxes will become brood boxes by early summer.

Bees will expand into the unused portions of their hive as their population increases, up, down, left, right, and out the door as a swarm.

I use all medium 8 frame boxes on all my established hives. In the spring I usually find the bees in the box they clustered in (the top box of the brood chamber). As they develop and all 3-4 boxes become filled with bees I add supers which in turn are filled with bees.

Bees will only work the space they stand on, if a hive does not have enough bees to cover all the frames in the hive they will not work or use all the frames in a hive--just those that have bees on them on then only as much as bees cover the frames. How many partial frames do you encounter that have fewer bees on it then the full frames?

There natural inclination is to build down, but if there are empty combs present they will populate and cover the combs 1st, whether those frames are up, down, or sideways from the bees location, and then build new combs.

Kathyp · April 24, 2009, 01:24:21 AM

super is not an incorrect term. some people only refer to those boxes they use for honey as supers, and those for brood, etc. as the hive body. i suppose technically you could only call something you put on top a super, but getting sticky about terms is just way to complicated :evil:

Tucker1 · April 24, 2009, 01:44:51 PM

Brian: Thanks for taking the time to compose such complete answers to everyone's questions. I enjoyed the forum so much. It's always filled with good questions and interesting conversation. The comments from the "senior" beeks helps put things into the proper perspective and the right context. What always impresses me is the thoughtfulness of the comments, questions and advise. Everyone that posts on the forum is considerate and respectful. It's interesting to read the remarks made by beeks located in countries other than the US. I feel fortunate to have found such a group of individuals.