Foundationless frames w/too many drone cells ??

rayb · April 19, 2009, 12:22:39 PM

I have been placing foundationless medium frames in my strong brood boxes but it seems to me that they are drawing too many drone cells. I'm moving these frames to the outside and placing new foundationless frames back in the center area. I know that they are supposed to know better than me what they need!!

Will they get to the level of drone cells they need and then start making more worker cells?
Or do I have to chill and know that they have a grip on what they need?

Thanks, Ray

(If only they would do what I want them to do!)

Natalie · April 19, 2009, 02:10:06 PM

You can check out Michael Bush's site for this and see if he mentions it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

From what I understand they will draw what they need and they always draw out drone comb first but I think Brian said that the drone comb and honey storage cells are the same size.

This is my first year and am doing foundationless as well, they are in the process of drawing out their first frames of comb.

rayb · April 19, 2009, 07:51:39 PM

Natalie,

Thanks for the response. Let me know how they draw out your frames.

Ray

Natalie · April 19, 2009, 08:51:59 PM

Will do! :)

fermentedhiker · April 19, 2009, 09:00:13 PM

I'm in same position as Natalie this being my first year trying foundationless. To help prevent the problem your talking about I'm intentionally including a frame of drone comb so they won't feel the need to make a lot of it elsewhere. That way if I decide to do drone capture to reduce varroa I'll be able to.

Michael Bush · April 20, 2009, 08:40:48 PM

If you pull out the drone comb they will draw more. If you leave it they will go back to drawing worker comb. It's ok. They know what they are doing. They've been doing it for millions of years.

rayb · April 20, 2009, 10:59:22 PM

Thanks Michael,

I've been moving the drone drawn frames to the outside and have just recently added more foundationless frames. Looking forward to see where they go with it.

Thanks, Ray

Brian D. Bray · April 22, 2009, 01:25:06 AM

Quote from: Natalie on April 19, 2009, 02:10:06 PM
From what I understand they will draw what they need and they always draw out drone comb first but I think Brian said that the drone comb and honey storage cells are the same size.

There are 4 sizes of comb, from smallest to largest: fill the space storage comb (when there isn't room for a normal cell), brood cell, drone comb, storage cell. Many new beekeepers mistake the large storage comb for drone comb. Large storage combs are bigger than drone cells and often somewhat misshapened.

Natalie · April 24, 2009, 09:47:55 PM

Hi Ray,
I looked in on both hives today and they seem to be keeping pace with eachother.
I installed them exactly 14 days ago on foundationless frames.
In each hive they have built 3 complete frames of comb and had new uncapped brood in at least one frame, there could have been some in the others but there were so many bees on them it was hard to tell.
They attached the combs on all sides and it looks like they were starting work on the next frame over.
The hives are building up nicely and its nice to see that new clean wax.
They are bringing in a ton of orange and yellow pollen and the cells look cool when they are filled with it.
How are yours doing? Its amazing how fast they can build comb.
I had heard from some people that they are much slower at building new comb than drawing out foundation but then I have also heard the opposite from people who have done foundationless.
I have never done foundation so I really don't have anything to compare it to but it doesn't seem too bad to me.
I have some other bees coming next month, it will be interesting to see if there is any differences in races.
I am keeping notes for comparisons.
These are Russians but I have NWC, Purvis Goldline and some local overwintered stock thats a mix of Russian and Carni.
How are yours doing on the foundationless now? Anyone else have any input from their experience with the foundationless?

TimLa · April 25, 2009, 04:06:34 AM

Last year I used plasticell, this year foundationless with plasticell starter strips. Both started with Italians from the same source.

While the weather this year has been far better than last year, and I'm feeding more this year than last, the foundationless are far outpacing last year's rate. They had drawn about 1/4 frame in the center two frames after just 72 hours - that was last Saturday. I'm going to check them again tomorrow, see how they're doing.

Hethen57 · June 04, 2009, 02:54:43 PM

On this subject, do the bees convert various cells to different uses that are needed, ie. take all those drone sized cells (after the drones have hatched) and store honey or make workers, or does it always remain the type of cell originally built? I saw another post where someone mentioned the bees moving honey/syrup out of the brood nest...and I was wondering if the bees could use those cells for brood (or were the bees likely using brood size comb to store honey in the broodnest in the first place)?