When to split a hive?

[Tucker1]

I have one hive that is doing very well and seems to be continually growing by leaps and bounds. It has almost completely filled two brood boxes and is now working on three suppers. I try to keep lots of open frames in front of them so they don't swarm. (Last year this hive did swarm.) I'd like to split this hive once the honey flow is over and then create a second hive from it. But, I don't want to create two poor performing hives out of one good hive. When should I consider doing the split? or do you think I should hold off until next spring?  The queen is on her second year and is doing great. The bees are Carnies and very gentle. If I do a split soon, I want to ensure that both hives go into the winter really strong.

Regards,
Tucker 

[charles]

If growing your beeyard is your goal, wouldn't it be better to do the split during the flow rather than after?

[Brian D. Bray]

If growing your beeyard is your goal, wouldn't it be better to do the split during the flow rather than after?

Not necessarily.  Splitting prior to a flow is done primarily as a swarm control measure whereas splitting after a flow is to make to strong hives from one very strong hive.  The split of stores, brood, and combs give both hives a good start and a better chance to gather enough stores while still producing an excess for the beekeeper.  Mid-summer splits also have the affect of introducing a partial or complete brood dearth for a couple of weeks which helps control varroa.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#timing

It helps if you have a strong enough hive to make two moderately strong hives.  :)

[Tucker1]

I'm worried about my best hive swarming.  Last year, in June, this hive swarmed. It recovered and appears to be doing very well this year. I have two full brood boxes and part of another 1/4 full brood box on this hive. (Perhaps an error?) In addition, I have two supers on this same hive. I don't want to overreacting, but by the same token I don't want to have another swarm.  I'm hoping that by placing a lot of empty super frames on the hive they just won't consider swarming. I have another empty super I could put on the hive. If needed, I could also pick up another brood box and move towards a pair of 2 brood box hives.

I suspect I'm just over reacting. Last year, I was present when the hive swarmed. It seemed like such a waste. It was amazing to see, but a waste. (I couldn't find the swarm by the time I gathered a "stuff".)  I'd rather have a really really large hive or two med. sized hives. Anything is better than a swarm.

Ideally, if I can get a large harvest out of this hive and then let it "shrink" during the fall, it might be the best thing. I've been told that I should move into winter with a 2 brood box hive and nothing larger.

Suggestions?

Regards,
Tucker

[Hethen57]

Tucker, were you thinking of buying another queen from Jerry, or letting them raise their own?  I am trying to get ahold of Jerry to buy a Carnie queen for a split, but I'm finding it may be quicker to mail order one from the coast, becasue he never returns calls and rarely returns emails  :roll:.

Also, what was the condition of the hive last year when they swarmed?  Were they maxed out on space (no undrawn frames)?  Did you miss the queen cells on your inspection of the hive?  Were the bees bearding off the front as an indication the hive was full and ready to swarm? 

Just curious and wanting to learn from your experience, because I watch mine pretty carefully and it would really bum me out if they swarmed after all this effort  :shock:.
-Mike

[Tucker1]

Mike:  I was hoping to buy another queen from Jerry, if I split the hive. The best time to contact Jerry in on Saturday mornings about 9:00.

To answer your question........ My hive at the time consisted of 2 brood boxes and 2 new empty supers.  The  supers had been there for over two weeks, but the girls never moved into the supers to make foundation. When the brood boxes were about 70 - 75 % filled up, I had moved some of the empty frames in the brood box towards the center of the box to make sure these frames were used. The empty supers were located on top of the hive. I would find bees walking around in the two supers, but they failed to build up foundation. (This year I've moved my supers below the brood boxes. I had been asking about bee movement within the hive, and the general opinion was that bee's move downward in the hive, over the course of the summer.) Having the supers located above the hive may have been my problem or the bee's just didn't like the supers with plastic foundation. However, all of my hives have plastic foundation and the frames were all bought about the same time. I have had bees build up foundation on these supers since the incident. So, I'm still a bit puzzled.

I hope this information is useful.  Calling Jerry at 9:00 AM on Saturday should work out for you. The bee supply business is a sideline for him, I suspect.  He's always been there on Saturdays.

Regards,
Tucker

[Hethen57]

I'm interested in your situation because I am at the exact same point with my hives...two nearly full deeps, just rotated the emptys from the outsides to the center of the brood nest...everything is going along pretty well.  That is interesting that they would swarm on you with all of that empty super space above.  If you put the supers under the brood box, won't they just fill it with brood? 

I wonder if this is where moving to a top entrance like Brian advocates may help draw the bee traffic through the empty supers, without filling them with brood?  Or maybe installing a vent box with a larger top entrance would help?

[bugleman]

Do like Dee Lusby and place new supers just below the capped honey.  Better yet pull some frames that are a work in progress and put them into the new supers and then open them up with frames of foundation between.  It can be difficult to get bees to go into new supers of foundation.

[Tucker1]

I had placed a Irmie (sp) shim above the top brood box, which was directly below the first empty supper. The shim seemed to work well, with the bees entering and exiting the hole in the shim. Perhaps, the placement of the shim was wrong. I could have placed it above the two empty supers.

In answer to your question: "If you put the supers under the brood box, won't they just fill it with brood?". I suspect they will ....... and perhaps the uppermost brood box eventually become filled with honey?    This is where I'm stuck.

There are two schools of thought about super placement, if I understand it correctly. One recommends placing the supers above the brood boxes (which I've used) and the other is placing the supers below the brood boxes. The later approach is more work, but is used. With the bees failing to go into the supers on top of the hive, I felt the need to try the alternate approach.

I hope this helps you with the problem your facing. Hopefully, your girls will move into your top side supers without an problems. Mine seem to be a little rebellious.

Regards,
Tucker

[Hethen57]

When shuffling boxes around like that...I was wondering how that works with their various cel sizes??  Can they use honey cels for brood and vice versa?  How about drone comb...can that ever be used for other purposes in the hive or are they stuck raising drones in those cells?  If they can't convert the cell useage, it seems like you will have 3 brood boxes and no honey supers.

The frames in my second brood box are filled with as much honey/syrup/pollen as brood, but it is intended as a brood box...will they change over...or do I need to move those frames to another hive or box to get them to fill it with brood? (**I have already shuffeled them towards outside of box and will quit feeding my girls...haha :roll:**).

[Two Bees]

I haven't placed honey supers below the brood deeps but I will rotate the honey supers to get them to draw out foundation.  For example, I'm using a two deep/two medium set-up with the mediums for honey.  The bees filled the first medium but would not work the top medium.  So, I rotated the medium supers and placed the full one on top and the empty one next to the top brood deep.  Seems to encourage them to work the super that they have to walk through to get to the full medium.

[Brian D. Bray]

Some bees would rather swarm than work plastic foundation or combs no matter what you do.

[Tucker1]

Brian: It must be something like that........ I just don't understand.   The rest of the entire hive is made of same type of plastic foundation. It's just seems to be those two supers. Perhaps it's a different lot of foundation material or some handling issue. The plastic foundation looks the same.

I'm going to pick up another new brood box and two additional new supers on Saturday. They should be ready to be installed on Monday evening.  I may try placing a super between two brood boxes to see if this has an effect. I need to figure this out.

Regards,
Tucker

[Brian D. Bray]

If it's plastic what have you done to make it enticing to the bees? 
Coated it with another layer of wax?
Aired it out long enough to get rid of that new plastic smell?
Used Vanilla or some other masking agent to confuse the bees into working the plastic?
Sprayed it with a good dose of sugar syrup before placing it on the hive?
Move a couple of the already used plastic frames of stores (outside ones 1 & 10) up to draw the bees?
Sandwiched the super between 2 others of drawn plastic combs?
Pull partially drawn frames from a hive that will or is working plastic frames?

Somewhere along the progress listed the bees should begin to work the plastic frames.  But still some won't and some will just keep swarming until you put them one wood.  My guess is that the plastic frames they are on were already used when you put the bees on them.  Used is the operative wood here, bees will often work the already developed plastic but not work the new stuff, not unusual.

[Two Bees]

Whew, Brian!  That's a lot of work to get them interested in plastic!  I'm liking my wax foundation even better now that I've read some of the additional steps that are most likely necessary to get the girls onto plastic.

[Hethen57]

I think Tucker1 is talking about Plasticel foundation...not plastic frames.  The place where Tucker1 and I buy our equipment is big on the Plasticel and it seems to be working fine for me in wooden frames.  I have one hive in wax and the other in Plasticel and they work them about the same.  The waxier the better.  Some of my Plasticel was not as waxy and they were slower to draw it out.

Tucker1, I just picked up another Carnie queen yesterday for a nuc I started.  I need to make some more equipment so I can get a couple more going.  With your hives, I would split them soon..as Jerry said we should have another big flow in a few weeks and they should all be able to build up nicely.
-Mike

[bugleman]

Don't be intimidated they work plastic just fine.  It just takes a little bee sense.