Emergency split - did I do the right thing?

tjc1 · June 01, 2014, 08:56:02 PM

Short story: 3rd year hive overwintered in a deep and a shallow super. Moved the queen and brood out of the super with an excluder; when brood hatched, I put on an empty medium between the deep and super.

7 days ago - no brood in super which was now filling with honey, medium being drawn, albeit slowly.

Today - super is full of brood again (mostly newly capped) and there are about 10 swarm cells in the super as well (all capped but 2, hanging from the bottom of the frames)!!! I was not expecting this... I had seen the beginnings of a queen cup 7 days ago, but assumed it was just for practice.

So I took the five frames that had swarm cells and put them in another medium with 5 empty frames (having looked carefully to make sure that I was not taking the queen, too) figuring they will make a new hive, and that this move will make the main hive think that they have already swarmed. I left the other five shallow frames (some brood, mostly honey) in the original hive with 5 empty frames added, still over the medium they are drawing out.

Any feedback/thoughts? Anything I need to go back and fix?

MsCarol · June 01, 2014, 09:13:18 PM

tjc1,

sure hope for a quick answer, cause I did EXACTLY the same thing today in a panic!!!

Now second thinking that the hive was superseding the older queen. I MIGHT have left a queen cell in the main hive and I do know there were eggs. So I sit here biting fingers (past the nails) if I messed up.

If the "instant" nuc makes a queen and prospers and the other does not, I can always recombine, I guess.

I am also getting a deep gut feeling I have had a swarm or two that I missed. Good the let them to the wild, not good that I missed them.

OldMech · June 03, 2014, 12:20:36 AM

There are lots of methods for doing an artificial swarm. None of them are exactly wrong. None of them are perfect.
When I artificially swarm a hive, I take the old queen and put her in a nuc with bees and brood. Why? If the hive had swarmed she would have been the one to leave, so moving the queen seems the most natural way to do it and give the bees the same feeling, of having actually swarmed. Scientific fact? not a chance, just a gut feeling.
I will make nucs out of extra queen cells using bees and brood from other hives etc.. and leave TWO queen cells in the original hive.
Some say use only one or they may swarm anyhow!
That is VERY true... I have had hives left with the old queen swarm, despite having NO queen cells left, and having lost half of their population to nucs/splits. I watched a hive left with two queen cells swarm TWICE with virgin queens, leaving the handful of remaining bees doomed. Sometimes there is NOTHING you can do to stop them,m so you do the best you can to increase the odds in your favor.
In my case, I leave two queen cells because I am hedging the odds. What if one is a dud, or does not emerge? there is another for backup. The chances are, the first to emerge will do in the un emerged queen, or the bees will do it for her. If they both emerge there is a high probability of a battle to the death. As stated above, there is also a chance one of them may swarm... it is a matter of odds. I try to stack the deck in my favor.

Old queen, some bees gone so they feel like they swarmed.
More bees gone for extra splits, so feels MORE like they swarmed.
New fresh foundation or empty drawn comb put in place of the frames with cells so they have room again.
Two queen cells left so that the odds of one being viable are higher.
High probability that the first emerged will destroy the other while still in the cell.
High probability that if both emerge they will fight, leaving only one.
Thus the odds that the hive will end up with a queen are higher, while the odds of the hive swarming are lower.

None of that is to say what you did was wrong. You do what your gut tells you in each situation as it arises. Sounds like you made the best of it you could, now you get to grow ulsers like all the rest of us when we do emergency splits :-D

marktrl · June 03, 2014, 12:30:14 AM

Its better if the 2 queen cells left in parent hive are on the same side of the frame.

MsCarol · June 06, 2014, 09:34:22 AM

Quote from: OldMech on June 03, 2014, 12:20:36 AM
None of that is to say what you did was wrong. You do what your gut tells you in each situation as it arises. Sounds like you made the best of it you could, now you get to grow ulcers like all the rest of us when we do emergency splits :-D

Thanks OldMech,

The weather - frequent scattered thunderstorms - has put a crimp on rechecking the hives. The split has bees inside and some limited activity. I have the entrance mostly blocked with grass. A peek under the top reveals they have also been sticking the comb frames together so they are doing something inside. :-D

The parent hive is still very active. Once the rains settle I will peek to see if there is a new queen cell and/or eggs/young brood.....or find the queen if I should be so lucky.

AliciaH · June 06, 2014, 03:36:26 PM

Quote from: marktrl on June 03, 2014, 12:30:14 AM
Its better if the 2 queen cells left in parent hive are on the same side of the frame.

Why?

tjc1 · June 07, 2014, 12:25:35 AM

So, is putting all of the swarm cells (12 or so) in the split a recipe for future swarming? I figured that the bees/first queen to emerge would eliminate the extras.

tjc1 · June 07, 2014, 12:32:02 AM

Follow-up - strange doings!?!

Stopped to listen to the mother hive yesterday (with the old queen and half the bees) which I had moved about 10 feet away. What do I hear? Two queens piping! One adult, one in the cell still (as indicated by piping pattern)! I guess there must have been another cell in the lower box, but maybe a supercedure cell, as it wasn't showing on the bottom of any frame.

THEN - checked on the hive today and when I took off the outer cover, who do I see sitting all by her lonesome, but a new queen!! (really strange that there were no other bees up on that inner cover - there always are). I'm guessing that she was hiding up there, trying to avoid a battle with the reigning queen??

Wolfer · June 07, 2014, 11:05:00 PM

Quote from: AliciaH on June 06, 2014, 03:36:26 PM
Quote from: marktrl on June 03, 2014, 12:30:14 AM
Its better if the 2 queen cells left in parent hive are on the same side of the frame.

Why?

It makes it easier for the first one out to kill the other. If their on different frames and they both hatch then they may fight it out or one may take a small swarm and leave.

Caelansbees · June 07, 2014, 11:32:25 PM

I agree the best thing to do is snag the queen out of the mother hive. Take her and a frame or two of brood, shake a few other frames worth of bees into a nuc box. Congrats you have now created a swarm.

In maryland our honey flow is right now peaking at the same as swarm season. If done correctly you can build your bees up to a tremendous population then "make" a small swarm. The hive with a huge population can now focus on raising a queen and making honey. You won't lose the production that you normally would with a larger swarm however.

Kathyp · June 07, 2014, 11:36:09 PM

QuoteI agree the best thing to do is snag the queen out of the mother hive.

beat me to it :-D

the reason you split like that is to simulate a swarm having happened. what happens when they swarm? the old queen leaves with a portion of the hive. so....when you do a split to keep them from swarming (maybe) you take the old queen and some of the bees and make a new hive. leave the swarm cells behind. i don't even take any for the split. i leave them all in the old hive...i know some do otherwise, but why risk the queen you just moved by giving her a rival. you do have to watch that they don't swarm anyway because sometimes they get it in their head to go and will not be dissuaded.

AliciaH · June 08, 2014, 12:43:47 PM

Quote from: Wolfer on June 07, 2014, 11:05:00 PM
Quote from: AliciaH on June 06, 2014, 03:36:26 PM
Quote from: marktrl on June 03, 2014, 12:30:14 AM
Its better if the 2 queen cells left in parent hive are on the same side of the frame.

Why?

It makes it easier for the first one out to kill the other. If their on different frames and they both hatch then they may fight it out or one may take a small swarm and leave.

Thanks for explaining! I was wondering if that was the case. I went into a hive yesterday where I needed to pare down the number of swarm cells. I chose two beautiful cells right next to each other and removed the rest.

OldMech · June 10, 2014, 04:55:50 PM

Quote from: tjc1 on June 07, 2014, 12:32:02 AM
Follow-up - strange doings!?!

Stopped to listen to the mother hive yesterday (with the old queen and half the bees) which I had moved about 10 feet away. What do I hear? Two queens piping! One adult, one in the cell still (as indicated by piping pattern)! I guess there must have been another cell in the lower box, but maybe a supercedure cell, as it wasn't showing on the bottom of any frame.

THEN - checked on the hive today and when I took off the outer cover, who do I see sitting all by her lonesome, but a new queen!! (really strange that there were no other bees up on that inner cover - there always are). I'm guessing that she was hiding up there, trying to avoid a battle with the reigning queen??

A virgin queen does not have the pheremone of a mated queen and is often ignored. A virgin queen is a killing machine. She is fast and limber, and will 99.9% of the time kill a heavy mated queen. Many keeps I know are now buying queen cells instead of mated queens. they put the cell in the top of the hive, the virgin kills the old queen, mates locally and produces a better hive of at least half local bees... thats the theory..... SO before you go pulling her out make sure your old queen is still there and doing well.

A dozen cells in a hive/split... No... Obviously you can do whatever you like.. I prefer to leave no more than two. Why two? Why not one? What if one of them is a dud? It happens.. One of them dies for some reason or is actually upside down in the cell. Two gives me a better chance of ONE viable queen. On the chance they are both viable.. the first out may kill the other, the bees may destroy the other, and or they may fight when they emerge, may the best queen win... It is a matter of odds with me.. there is still a "chance" one of them will fly off with a cast, but the "odds" are leveled toward the middle of the field and ending up with one good queen.. If using my own raised queen cells.. THEN, I stick with one....