Splitting question.

[RangerBrad]

Last year I split a couple of hives and found that after the hive was split and left with more empty frames(replaced frames taken with empty frames)the original queen really picked up on her laying by alot. Is this normal?

Also when I did the splits I left the original hive with original queen in the same place and took the split with the caged queen about 3 miles away. Would I have been better off to put the original queen, a few frames of brood, honey and empties in a body and moved them and left the new caged queen with the original hive? Thank's, Brad

[Michael Bush]

The workers try to manage the amount she lays by managing the space she has to lay in.  They backfill the other cells with nectar.  You can see this even in a mating nuc when there is no queen, then a virgin queen then a laying queen.  They backfill, the clear a space then clear more space.  If you give them a lot of room a queen will lay a lot.  Especially before the workers can fill them to keep her from it...

[RangerBrad]

I'm supposed to do the splits next week however our real flow is in April and May is this enough time that they should really build up and I still be able to make a good harvest?
Also should the present Queen be left with the old hive and field workers or would it be best to send her with the split? Thank's, Brad

[Michael Bush]

I've gotten too lazy to find a queen when doing a split.  I just split them and let them raise a queen.  IF I see the queen, I would put her in the new location.  If you do a split just before the flow (two weeks before would be ideal) and take all the open brood, most of the honey and pollen and the old queen and put them in the new location, the remaining bees will raise a new queen and make more honey because they have no brood to rear.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdown

[FRAMEshift]

If you do a split just before the flow (two weeks before would be ideal) and take all the open brood, most of the honey and pollen and the old queen and put them in the new location, the remaining bees will raise a new queen and make more honey because they have no brood to rear.

What are the considerations you are looking at when you say that two weeks before the flow is ideal?  I'm sure you are optimizing several variables at once.  Why two weeks instead of three weeks  or zero weeks before the flow?

[FRAMEshift]

take all the open brood, most of the honey and pollen and the old queen and put them in the new location, the remaining bees will raise a new queen

Of course you don't want to take all the open brood.    :evil:   Got to leave a few eggs behind so the bees can make a new queen.  I only noticed this because I say the same thing myself and then I realize what I've said.   :-D

[Michael Bush]

>What are the considerations you are looking at when you say that two weeks before the flow is ideal? 

Everything.  Production.  Prime time to rear queens.  Lots of drones.  You'll get MORE honey than if you did not do a split.  The reason is early recruiting.  The one hive is making bees while the other is making honey.

>I'm sure you are optimizing several variables at once.  Why two weeks instead of three weeks  or zero weeks before the flow?

Three weeks before and they will lose some brood that would have helped with the harvest.  Zero and you won't get as many early recruits, but it will still work pretty well.  Two weeks was arrived at by many comb honey people over the decades.

>Of course you don't want to take all the open brood.    Got to leave a few eggs behind so the bees can make a new queen.  I only noticed this because I say the same thing myself and then I realize what I've said.

True.  But I'll bet you'll find it virtually impossible not to leave some if you leave all the capped brood.  There is almost always some eggs in this corner or that corner.

[FRAMEshift]

Three weeks before and they will lose some brood that would have helped with the harvest.  Zero and you won't get as many early recruits, but it will still work pretty well.

When you say "early recruits" do you mean nurse bees/new bees  that become storage workers/foragers sooner than they otherwise would?  Why would you have fewer early recruits at zero weeks before flow?

True.  But I'll bet you'll find it virtually impossible not to leave some if you leave all the capped brood.  There is almost always some eggs in this corner or that corner.

Well yes, and you are splitting by the box so you don't even have to consider that level of detail.  I like that.  I'm trying to think of an analogous way to split a long hive.  Maybe just take every other frame?

[Michael Bush]

>When you say "early recruits" do you mean nurse bees/new bees  that become storage workers/foragers sooner than they otherwise would?  Why would you have fewer early recruits at zero weeks before flow?

Exactly.

>Well yes, and you are splitting by the box so you don't even have to consider that level of detail.  I like that.  I'm trying to think of an analogous way to split a long hive.  Maybe just take every other frame?

Yes, if you are doing an even split.  But I was describing a cut down split, in which case you are making two colonies that have different goals.  One making honey and the other bees.  So you you take all the open brood, the queen and most of the honey for the new location and the capped brood and a little honey at the old location.  That does take a frame at a time view of things.

   

[FRAMEshift]

>When you say "early recruits" do you mean nurse bees/new bees  that become storage workers/foragers sooner than they otherwise would?  Why would you have fewer early recruits at zero weeks before flow?

Exactly.

Ok, so if you split at the start of the flow instead of two weeks earlier, you still get early recruits but you get them after the flow has started so they are not as useful.  Is that it?

[FRAMEshift]

Yes, if you are doing an even split.  But I was describing a cut down split, in which case you are making two colonies that have different goals.  One making honey and the other bees.  So you you take all the open brood, the queen and most of the honey for the new location and the capped brood and a little honey at the old location.  That does take a frame at a time view of things.

I think I misunderstood you earlier.  If you are doing a cut down split, do you  look for the queen?  When you said you were too lazy to look for the queen, was that just for even splits?

I get the feeling that there are some economy of scale issues that you have worked out here.  

[Michael Bush]

>Ok, so if you split at the start of the flow instead of two weeks earlier, you still get early recruits but you get them after the flow has started so they are not as useful.  Is that it?

The "two weeks" comes from the experienced comb honey producers of the past.  I just know it works.  But, yes, that is the gist of it.


>I think I misunderstood you earlier.  If you are doing a cut down split, do you  look for the queen?

Yes.

>  When you said you were too lazy to look for the queen, was that just for even splits?

Yes.

>I get the feeling that there are some economy of scale issues that you have worked out here.

A cut down is all about the timing and the distribution of the resources.

[CVBees]

Mike,

Just a note to say thanks for all your contributions.  I have been gone awhile due to soul crushing losses and decided to buy a few packages this year and give it another go.

I remember you helping me when I first started out and I see you have not stopped assisting the eager.  Thanks again.

Jason   :-D

[Michael Bush]

>Thanks again.

You are welcome.

[jtow]

Michael, sounds like a cutdown split for production would also be a good way to create a new additional hive since they will not produce excess honey the first year anyway?

[Michael Bush]

>sounds like a cutdown split for production would also be a good way to create a new additional hive since they will not produce excess honey the first year anyway?

Yes.  But the original hive will produce excess honey.  Where a typical even split in a month before the flow, usually neither will make a crop.  But sometimes...